Therapy Is a Roguelite
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona, and I'm joined by Link Keller. Hi. Lara Taylor.
Lara:Hey.
Josué:And Marc Cuiriz. Yellow. Alright. Today's topic is therapy is a rogue lite. So what is a rogue lite?
Josué:I'm gonna start with that with a little history lesson, and then, hopefully, Link can help me out to make sure that I've got everything correct here. So there's a term for for games, kinda like a a genre of games known as I see it in googling. There's a game named Rogue. It came out in 1980, And what made that game influential that there are many games that have come out after it and are and use Rogue in the in the to to compare them. The interesting thing was that you would play, and once you died, it would reset.
Josué:And then when you play it again, the game would start over, but the game would be different, and that it would remix the levels, the layout, the enemies. So imagine playing the original Super Mario Brothers, where there's a world one, two, three, two, world two, one, world two, two, world two, three. They always go in that order. So if you die, you start again. Imagine that those numbered levels didn't exist.
Josué:And every time you started over, the first level that you played had different pieces, had enemies from different levels. So you could start in a water level, and then it would go to a fire one and then a sky one. And then the next time you play, it starts with the spiky things, and then it starts on a ship. So that's that's how rogue played in the nineteen eighties. So lots of games have come out after, and they are you'll hear the terms rogue like or rogue lite.
Josué:So, typically, when someone says that a or a game is listed as rogue like, what people are referring to is that the game has that kind of structure where when they you you play the game, you play as you get as far as you can with what you have, you die, you start over, and then everything is different. So the first game that comes to mind to me for that is The Binding of Isaac is one game, right, where you start over, you don't upgrade your character, you know, like, every time you just, like, you get different weapons, you you can get a little further, you can unlock more ways to progress, but you really don't get stronger as you proceed. And there's a whole other genre of games called rogue lite. And then rogue lite, it's think of it as, like, an easier version of that, where as you progress, you do have permanent upgrades that allow you to move further, progress further so you can get stronger, you can get new weapons. This type of game, a roguelite, is one of my favorite genres, and there are lots of games that fit into that.
Josué:My my favorite roguelite is it's an obscure like, I don't know many people would like or or even know of the game, but it's called Skyforce. There's a couple games called Skyforce, and it's a shoot them up with the plane. And you start and you're just like one bullet at a time flying through these levels. Then as you progress, you gain currency, and by the end of it, you're shooting, you know, like, lasers and cannons and, you know, covering the whole screen and just progressing in it. And I love that feeling of being able to just get a little bit stronger as you proceed.
Josué:Do you guys have any any favorite rogue likes or rogue lites?
Marc:I think you you well, you mentioned pretty much my favorite, the binding of Isaac. That's a game that not only do have I always really enjoyed playing, but that it was also a game that my friends and I, we would always, like, try to race each other. Like, we'd be on, like, Discord calls or, you know, even back when, like, you know, earlier on, we would use, like, Skype and stuff to, like, coordinate and try to race each other to see who can clear the the the big boss first before entering in all the extra stuff. And, god, I remember even a couple weeks ago, I was playing with a friend, and there's, like, a new, like, beta going on for, like, online, like, multiplayer stuff so you guys can play together in in roguelikes. That's just probably my favorite.
Marc:But in terms of, like, another one, a rogue lite would be we we gotta return to my my my classic, the game that has it all, the series that has it all, assassin's creed.
Josué:Which how? How? Which one? What are what are you
Marc:talking about? Get out of here. So I'm talking about assassin's creed Valhalla. Assassin's Creed Valhalla, a lot of the DLC and add ons with the season pass, one of them is called the Forgotten Saga. This is where they introduced a rogue lite aspect to the game where Eivor is kind of acting as Odin.
Marc:And it's this forgot and, like, it goes through and tells the story of how Odin goes down to Helheim, and he's basically working his way to get to hell to fight her to bring back Baldr after he died. So he's this is the saga of how Odin tries to bring back Baldr. But ultimately, like, they tell the story that, like, he dies or he fails over and over again. He comes back to his starting point, and he continues on. And then when you finally get to the point where you're facing against Hella and you defeat her, it ultimately resets.
Marc:And then it's like, no. I have to go. I have to continue to go. And he just continues on over and over again.
Josué:Do does Zeus get upgrades as you go through?
Marc:Yes. So and Oden, he Oden. Yeah. Yeah. You you start off, you get your power ups, and then as you every time you return back, there's, like, different characters.
Marc:So, like, Thor is there, and there's, like, a couple of elves or dwarves that are there that you can purchase favors. You can purchase upgrades to make it a little bit easier for you. Or you can choose to like, if you liked some of the equipment that you had in your previous run, you can pay some currency to then start with that same gear with this with whatever upgrades that it had, whether it's fully upgraded or somewhat upgraded. And then along the way, obviously, you can continue to upgrade it, make yourself stronger.
Josué:Okay. This episode is gonna be so confusing as we as we move forward. Link, talk about Hades. How how
Link:did how did you know? How did you know?
Josué:Actually, I don't know. I don't
Lara:know.
Link:How how did you know?
Josué:You had Hades face.
Link:I love Hades. I I love roguelikes in general. I have I have played a ton of them. Hades is definitely one of my favorites partly because of how their, difficulty system works. As Josué was saying, one of the the main features of of roguelikes and roguelites is the the fact when you die, you you are starting over at the beginning.
Link:Hades has some unlockable things that go across games. It's like getting access to different weapons and and spending resources to permanently upgrade them. But if you turn on god mode, which love that it's called god mode in a game where you are playing in, Greek mythology. But in with god mode on, every time you die, you get a permanent buff to your, to Zagreus, the player you are the character you are playing as. And so, even though you you you will still die a whole lot, each time you die, you are getting more overall powerful.
Link:And so it, matches really well with, like, as you play the game more times, you, the player, get better at moving through the game. And so it it does really feel like you are becoming more powerful. And so it doesn't hit as hard when you lose all of your cool buffs and everything. It's like starting over at the beginning. It's like, yeah.
Link:I'm starting over, but I'm a little bit tougher than I was last time. A little bit stronger. It's a little bit harder for you to kill me. So I maybe I get a little bit further this time.
Josué:Yeah.
Link:I love that game because it's got great narrative interwoven in into the gameplay and and having the ability to turn on that kind of, accessibility feature of making the game easier, is really, really nice to have it fit so well in with the narrative itself.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was hoping you'd talk about Hades. I don't know why.
Josué:It
Lara:was just
Josué:just a feeling.
Link:I think another another good one to touch on is, Rogue Legacy. That was a really fun one that came out, and that one had the legacy aspect is when your character died, they had children, and you got to choose, which of their, like, skill sets got passed. You don't get to choose which which skills get passed on, but you get to choose which of the your offspring that you will play in the next run, which I thought was a very fun way of incorporating that that idea of, like, you're starting fresh, but not completely blank slate.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I liked I I like to give Rogue Legacy as an example because you're always entering the same castle. Right? In every every generation that you're coming back, you're going to the same castle, but the castle inside is different.
Josué:Like, the rooms have moved around. And that's I I feel like that's easier to explain than the abstract idea of a dungeon. Right? Like, I think most of us understand it's like, oh, yeah. No.
Josué:You entered a dungeon like in Zelda. Right? It's just a dungeon. But, like, there's no physical building, but in Rogue Legacy, you see that there's a building, and and you just know that the rooms are moving around. And some of the one of the things that you can do as you're progressing through the game, at the end of a run, you can freeze the current configuration of the building.
Josué:It's like this giant screw that you that you hold, and it costs a certain currency. And I really I really like Rogue Legacy as a it's a I think it's a rogue lite because you can upgrade features as well for your next runs. And I I don't know. I love that feeling of of, like, okay. It's no problem.
Josué:I lost, but, like, what have I gained here and what and sometimes, like, every every run, you're like, if I were just a little faster, so I'm gonna invest, you know, in in being a little faster. Like, I'm and I wanna be a little stronger. I need to jump farther or whatever it is. Or there's a particular weapon, right, that needs more. I really like, I I love this genre.
Josué:And, like, one of the more recent ones that I think was pretty fun was Cult of the Lamb. Did that.
Lara:Playing that one. That one's a lot fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Link:That one was a
Josué:lot fun. It mixes a lot of different elements. But one of them is that, like, when you leave the cult area and you go to recruit new cult members, everything like the the the forest that you're in is is randomized. And that's pretty cool. And you also get to upgrade and you come back and get to upgrade all sorts of stuff.
Lara:Heavily leans on those upgrades, and and you get to build your camp, which is really cool.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I I like those a lot. So I think I think with just those examples, we can we can make the comparison to therapy, just with those alone. A few weeks ago, I had what I will call a breakthrough in my own therapy.
Josué:I've been seeing my current therapist for about two years now. I think this was one of the biggest moments. Oh, shit. Something happened. This is this is a game changer.
Josué:And I felt really good. And within, like, a week after, I still had the understanding of what had happened, but I was having the same difficulties I was having before. And so this idea of, like, oh, yeah. You don't just fix stuff. Right?
Josué:It's not just one run. Like, therapy, you go back and you go back and you go you revisit the same things over and over again. Not to mention between sessions, are practicing. But then, like, you go, you have that run, you're looking at things a little bit differently, you come at it from and sometimes things come up that you didn't expect to come up in that run. Right?
Josué:It doesn't matter how planned it is, therapy can very much feel like there's a random number generator hitting you with all sorts of stuff.
Link:I I'm so sorry. I'm gonna be that guy. It's not random is not the correct terminology. Procedural generation is the terminology. And I think, actually, that applies better to this therapy metaphor because it's not fully random.
Link:There are pieces at which each connection points to certain room within the game. It's like certain types of room can spawn off of that door. It's not fully random. It's random within a chunk set. And I think that that applies to therapy too because you're talking to a therapist who's a real person.
Link:And so there are things that are going to be connected for them that to you is like, that's fully random, but it's like, there there was a little bit of a chunking thing happening there, whereas like, I have like six six really stabbing questions right to the guts of your ego that is like, I'm pulling from yeah. Are you ready?
Josué:Here it comes. Like, I'm I'm waiting. Yeah. Yeah. Phew.
Link:But I think I think that's it's not an important thing to say. I just I needed
Josué:to say it. Link, I I've never been prouder Thanks. Than I am right now of of you for this correction. Thank you. Thank you.
Josué:I knew I'd be depending on you for for for this one. This is true. The term is procedurally generated because the game is not making stuff up. It has a collection of enemies and rooms and spaces, and it kinda mixes them together. And I think that that's a really good point because a good therapist is not just throwing random shit at you.
Josué:There are neither is your brain. Right? It's like your traumas are there, your issues are there, your life is there. And sometimes it may feel like things are coming out of nowhere, but that stuff is it's in stock.
Lara:Loose connection somewhere that is the thread that goes to something. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. But you're it's it's true. Right? Like, you've got you've got them in stock just awakening. You don't know when they're gonna come up, but that's where that's that's exactly what it's like playing a a roguelite.
Josué:And and that's why I make the distinction again, like, what a nerdy episode. But, like, gotta distinguish between roguelite and roguelike because in roguelite, you can upgrade. And I feel like that's where There
Marc:I mean, there's
Link:some like, it's a it is a soft border between these two things because there there are the the purest roguelike would be you keep nothing. The only thing you are gaining is you as the player are becoming more knowledgeable about how the game plays.
Josué:Yep.
Link:And then adding, you know, a thing like a key that lets you skip a first world is like that is giving you, like, a jump ahead, but it doesn't give you any, like, benefit within the level. Right? It doesn't give you any extra items or whatever. Then there's No. You know, the the further end of that is like on the Hades with God mode where it's like you are unlocking things that go between levels.
Link:You are increasing relationships with other characters that that gives you benefits. And then every time you die, you are getting a benefit also. So it's like, it's a gradient.
Josué:Mhmm. Yes. Yes. I can maybe argue I'll I'll I'll I will define roguelite as, like, a permanent upgrade, right, versus right? Or something that you can carry forward, not just once.
Josué:Right? Like like the example you give, like, oh, you can get a key and maybe it'll change something for this run, but something permanent, like, your stats increase. Like, you are stronger from now on
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:And every run moving forward, I think, right, like, that that's what I would call a rogue lite. And then anything below like, if you can't have any permanent change to either yourself or the world or or your weapons, then, you know, it's it's alike in the sense where it's not as pure as the original rogue. Laura, you're gonna say something.
Lara:I was gonna say something. Like, I was gonna say I could make the argument that even because you were talking about how this applying therapy, applying more to a rogue lite. Could make the argument that the way Link is defining rogue like is a lot like therapy because, okay, yes, you can get permanent upgrades. You can get you can build tools and skills in therapy and learn things over and over. I have clients who talk to me about the same thing and apologize to me about talking about the same thing over and over and over again.
Lara:Something that we thought we dealt with two years ago pops up again last week, something like that. I remind
Josué:It procedurally generated.
Lara:It was procedurally generated. Whether it was an experience that happened in their life that led them to the connection to something in the past or whatever, it's there. Yeah. And I think I had this conversation with somebody who was really into roguelikes when I first started doing outpatient therapy. We go through these things over and over again.
Lara:Every time you come to that thing and I think this is what Link was getting with, with you as the player are learning how the game works. You're learning how to work through these things. You know kind of what to expect. Maybe the skill quite isn't there, but you're you're getting there. You're you're you're figuring it out, how working out how to get further along in the game.
Lara:Every time we come to it, we have all those experiences, all the conversations you've had with the therapist, with friends, family. You as a person are different because of, say, we didn't talk about it for six months. That's six months of experience in life that has made someone into a new person. They are not the same exact person that they were when they entered into the dungeon. Right?
Lara:So even a roguelike in and of itself is like this metaphor. Now I can get where there's all those fancy upgrades that you can get in the roguelites. That is also another thing. The continued, like, discussion with a therapist and, like, the skills that you build if you're building using a more CBT, REBT, DBT, all the cognitive and behavioral therapies. Yeah.
Lara:Those are solid skills that you can build and upgrades you can get. Or upgrades are like, oh, I got a new friend who will listen to my problems and has gone through something similar and gives me advice on how to do this thing. But, yeah, it's not just the roguelites that are that are like therapy. It's the roguelikes too.
Josué:Okay. This may be my favorite episode that we've done in a long time. Let's let's let's let's let's get into this. Okay. I was thinking I was thinking something similar in that in a roguelike, you are you're getting better.
Josué:Like, you're getting more skill as the player even though your character isn't getting better. Right? So that's, like, in a way, like, because of the practice, it's getting easier as you progress. So I can see it in that in that sense, like, you if
Lara:you
Josué:look at it in that way. I wasn't looking at it that way. I was looking at it as I'm the character moving through the game. Right? And if I'm the character moving through the game, it's funny you said something like, man.
Josué:You might be acquiring these skills or you might be you're doing CBT and now you have this. Right? And I think sometimes, right, like, none of that guarantees that you're going to progress farther necessarily.
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:Because, like, you can you can have all these upgrades and still not be better at the game. Right? Like, and just
Lara:Me playing a rogue lite.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Right. But eventually, right, like, of that stuff builds up. But also, you can invest in the wrong stats that aren't gonna help you.
Josué:Right? So that you can spend weeks working on one particular skill, and then life is not consistent. So you may not have that situation to practice and deal with. Other things came up. And then for the last two or three weeks, you've been training for the wrong sport or or or battle.
Josué:Right? It's like, that that didn't prepare me for it.
Lara:Right. I've had great runs playing Hades where the right boons match up with my skill set as a player. Get the ones that increase my health or whatever. Things line up. Yeah.
Lara:Things line up. I do a lot of damage. I have a lot of health. Cool. I can make it almost to the end.
Lara:Next run. Fuck. I didn't get any of that. So I'm gonna I'm gonna be able to make it three rooms in and then I'm gonna die. Yeah.
Lara:You know? And that can happen. That can happen. Like, you can life can be going pretty good. You're trucking along.
Lara:You're using your skills. And then I don't know the If your skill, if your coping strategy is, I don't know, reliance on internet, and the internet goes out, or the power goes out, or you rely on talking to a friend who is now having a big issue and they're gone, like, you don't have that resource. So you have to figure out other resources. So yeah.
Josué:So so in in terms of of the rogue like, looking at it as a rogue, like versus a rogue like, you know, like, the permanence of of an upgrade, do you feel that therapy in therapy, as you go and you have multiple runs, are you gaining skills as a player to proceed? Are you gaining any permanent upgrades? Are you doing
Lara:Are any upgrades permanent? There are plenty of skills that, like I talk to clients regularly. What has been helpful for you in the the first first session? What has been helpful for you in managing whatever it is you're coming to me with? Oh, I used to journal, and it was really helpful.
Lara:Oh, do you do that anymore? No. Okay. Well, maybe we should try doing that again. Things like that.
Josué:But is that is that, like, is that just not using? In If in looking at If
Lara:you're looking at, say, Hades, right? Some upgrades are permanent. Some are just procedurally generated upgrades that you get throughout the the levels. So I don't know.
Josué:Your question your answer is, I don't know?
Lara:Answer It's is, I don't up
Josué:to interpretation. The skill of journal writing.
Link:If if we wanna keep hanging on to this metaphor, which I do with all my heart Yes. It would be like you have some permanent buffs, some unlocks, but they are tied to certain weapons or equipment. And so if you don't have that piece of equipment or that weapon currently equipped time. Then you can't necessarily access that buff that you got from it. And then taking that the step further is, like, you've been training and you've been building up on one thing, like, you're putting all of your your points into doing punching damage.
Link:And if anything comes up close to you, you can kill it in one hit and you're fantastic. And then you get to a boss and it's a fully ranged fight. All of those benefits that you've been working on is like, that's that's not gonna apply here. So what do you do now? In games, the answer is die and try again.
Link:But, in therapy, I hope that the therapist is like, well, let's talk about why this skill set isn't useful here and what skill set would be useful here.
Lara:Which goes into a completely different metaphor because one thing that I learned doing behavior in home behavior work is all behavior was useful for something. It's a learned behavior that was adaptive at some point. And then in the current situation, it's not adaptive anymore and it's actually kind of hurting the person or the people around them. So, yeah, that's a that's another piece of the puzzle. But, you know, that skill set you had, yes, it saved your butt when things were hard when you were a kid, and now you're in a little bit of a safer place.
Lara:So what are some other things we can do that are not that skill set? And let's try and buff up those things.
Link:I think that ties into on the roguelike side, like Binding of Isaac, where you're starting out with no items, no no skills. And then you go into rooms where you get to choose an item out of three. And when you first start the game, you don't know what any of those items do. You have no knowledge. It's it is a random draw, hope for the best.
Link:But as you have played more, even though you don't currently have any of those benefits on you, you recognize what they are. And so you're making more informed choices about what tool to pick up in hopes like, okay, I know that this boss fight is gonna come up in the next six to eight rooms. So if I pick up this item, that's gonna be really useful right away. If I pick up this other item, that's actually gonna be really great for the next level. Am I a good enough player to beat this boss without the item?
Link:All that metagaming stuff.
Josué:Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay. Okay. I'm gonna take I'm gonna take I'm gonna take a a detour, and then we'll come back to this to this conversation.
Josué:So what what sparked this idea for me was specifically the and this is gonna be confusing. Before Mark was talking about Assassin's Creed Valhalla, what's what's the what's the DLC called?
Marc:The Forgotten Saga.
Josué:The Forgotten Saga. There's another game that is the one that inspired this conversation, Just called God of War, Ragnarok, Valhalla. No association to the other game except that it's Norse mythology as well.
Lara:Side note, those games playing those games around the same time that I watched Vikings, I was like,
Josué:what Vikings? No. No. You're making more confusing.
Lara:I'm just saying, what version of Odin are we talking about? What version of Loki are we talking about? I don't know what what version of this person. It's all Also I love Norse mythology, but it's so there's so many versions, and I get them all mixed up all the time.
Josué:So Also, Mark was talking about Odin, and I mentioned Zeus, and then we talked about Hades, and look, it's
Lara:kinda And before and before the show, we were talking about Percy Jackson and Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. So there's this game, God of War, Ragnarok, came out with DLC called Valhalla. I watched the review on YouTube. He's my my favorite video game reviewer. The channel is Skill Up.
Josué:Look up this video. Look up his review. Watch the first six minutes. And he does this thing where he talks about a documentary called what's the documentary called, Mike?
Marc:The Work.
Josué:It's called The Work? Okay. Mhmm. And, actually, what is that documentary about? So
Marc:documentary is basically it's going over this intensive group therapy that is done at a state prison, a maximum security prison in California. And for four days out of the out of one week, they invite civilians or or regular people to come in and basically be a part of the program so they can see what things are like or or they can be a part of the process. And so this documentary kind of covers that with, like I think it's, like, three or four different people and why they're coming in to be a part of the program for four days.
Josué:Okay. Okay. And so this video game review starts talking about this documentary, and he says it's called The Work. Then he starts talking about God of War, Ragnarok, Valhalla, which he described as a as a roguelike or lite game where you enter as Kratos, the main character, who in this series I'm gonna give some context. He is a character who, over a decade ago, was in a series of games where he is fighting through the Greek pantheon of gods on a it's a revenge story.
Josué:Just for the revenge story. And he's fighting a whole bunch of gods. There's a trilogy with one or two additional games, smaller games. And then in 2018, there was a sequel to those games that is very, very different and is the same character. And he now he has somehow escaped the Greek mythology and lives in a world of Norse mythology, where he's basically left behind the world where he became the god of war and killed gods, and now he has a wife and a kid and this whole thing.
Josué:So that's one game. Second game comes out. Bunch of stuff happens. Now this DLC comes out. In this DLC, he goes through he he goes through this kinda gauntlet repeating these this game again and again.
Josué:But the like, these fights again and again. But the in the video review, he goes, like, what does what does that, you know, that documentary have to do with this game? Well, in the game, the main storyline is called The Work. And the way that the game is set up is that as you go through Valhalla, you are looking to you're looking at your past to kinda move forward towards your towards the future. You are dealing with all of the things that you did in all of those previous games, across Greek mythology and Norse mythology, and trying to move forward as a person, and you've never come face to face with the things that you did.
Josué:You've never come to terms with that. So the game is set up like a rogue lite where you go through, there's a room, you fight some enemies, you get an upgrade, you move forward, you get an upgrade, and the the upgrades are random in the sense. Right? But the the yes. Everything is procedurally generated.
Josué:You're going to a different space, different room, and then you get to a point where you fight a boss or something. Something happens and you get currency that allows you to then get a permanent upgrade so that when you come through again, even though there are parts that are randomized, you keep getting stronger every every every time. Now the that video review described Kratos' journey as therapy for him. So I went and I immediately went and and and and played it. And, oh, yeah, like, is not subtle about that.
Josué:And, like, that whole storyline in between where it says it's the work, it's literally he's putting in the work. He is going through the game. There are moments in the game where he's having conversations with his companion, and he's like, I can't. Like, do you know what I've done in the past? You know?
Josué:And his companion's like, Amir is like, and, like, just, like, what you did in the past doesn't define who you are now or who you're going to be. And it's, like, moments like that that he is being told, he's coming to terms with who he is now and who he was, kind of trying to accept that maybe he is a different person, and he can be a different person. And there are a lot of parts of his past that he just doesn't like, he he refuses to even talk about them. But by confronting them, by talking about them, by literally battling them in the game, you're moving forward and coming to like, there is a storyline where the point is for him to come to a realization about who he is or who he can be. I thought it was amazing.
Josué:Like, I I highly recommend it. You don't have to play all of the seven games to get this experience, but definitely the last few. And or or just look it up online and look at some of these conversations that are happening. There are there are fights where at the at the end, like, there's these moments of reflection. Like, it's something that the God of War games, the last two, have done really well is that, you know, how, like, in some games, you're climbing stuff and you're just climbing a whole lot.
Josué:Right? In in a game like God of War, if there's a part where you're climbing from one thing to another, it's not just to get from point a to point b. It's actually an excuse for the game to have a conversation between its characters. Like, that's how they tell the story and and move the narrative forward. So in the in Valhalla, there's, like, a room where you're battling, and then there's another room where you're doing your upgrades and stuff.
Josué:And there, the characters are talking and having moments where they're where they're learning about the past, understanding things, like, really processing stuff. And as you progress, there's literally, like, you can win some battles, and eventually, someone will tell you, like, but do you feel that you're ready, like, to move on or to open this door or to do this next thing? It's like, you just learned this. Now go back and think about it. And literally, like, it's it it feels very much like when you get to the end of a session in therapy, it's like, yeah.
Josué:No. We did great. See you next week. It's like, no. But we're, like, we're making progress.
Josué:Can we keep can we keep talking? No. Go go think about what what we just learned and and then go back and and we'll we'll talk about it later. So the reason why I felt like after playing that game, I felt like therapy is like a rogue lite. Although I'm willing to have the conversation, I'm not completely against the rogue lite thing.
Josué:And, yes, it's it's it's both. Right? But but I wanna, you know, purely have both discussions. The reason why I think it's a rogue light is because as the story is progressing, right, as the character of Kratos is moving through, there is actually a narrative storyline where he he is gaining insight as he moves forward. He never loses the insight.
Josué:Right? Like, the insight isn't a stat. Like, there like, there are actual stats, like strength and vitality and and defense that you can upgrade, and those are permanent, which help you move forward. But there is also, narratively, the fact that he does reach milestones in the work, in his therapy, and he he has that, and every the entire world in the game knows that. So as the game when you go for another run, the conversations build upon the insights that you just got.
Josué:And they keep building on each other until the conclusion where it's like all of those things come together, and he has a realization, and he has a support group and everybody's on board. And he's like, oh, like, now I see this. Now I accept this, and now I can move forward. And I feel like therapy is that way where you do you your life may not necessarily improve immediately, but those things, like, there are milestones and things that move that move forward that you don't lose. Sure.
Josué:There are things and I think that's where like, I think you did a a good job of of, like, differentiating between tools and skills before Lara because I think yeah. Like, when I started and this is something that the review also also talks about. He said, when I started the DLC, I did not remember at all how to play this game. I was pressing the wrong buttons. Right?
Josué:And I feel like that playing a lot of games where I go and I'm like, how how do I do this? In a game like Binding of Isaac where where you don't have permanent upgrades, every time I start, I'm like I'm like, it's my first time. Right? Like, I don't have any upgrades. I'm gonna die way quicker just because I'm not used to it.
Josué:Right? So there's, like, this this skill level that kind of atrophies over time. But the but the permanent up the games with the permanent upgrades are still there. So when I go back to God of War, like, I have all my armor. I'm still super strong even if I don't remember exactly how to do it.
Josué:So I feel like the the the argument I wanted to make or or, like, at least I was convinced by that metaphor of how when you play when when you go through therapy, you are gaining over time. Like, you are not every week. Right? Like, not every run. You may not be doing gaining something in particular.
Josué:Right? Like because I think that therapy isn't I'm I'm I'm curious what you guys think about this. But, like, because, like, therapy is a very it's, like, it's one hour per week for most people. That's not always the case in in how therapy works, but it's like fifteen minute session once a week. You don't really get the chance to practice the skills during that time.
Josué:Right? Like, there is kind of a like, there's an opportunity to kinda do a different kind of work. And in that work, you can reach milestones and acquire new insights and knowledge and perspective that can they can then move forward. And those, I don't really feel like you lose them. You may not remember to how to use them at the right moment, but, like, you don't you don't lose that progression.
Josué:You may not access it easily because of lack of practice, but, like, you did move forward. Like, oh, yeah. No. I did. I do have a better understanding of this traumatic event and how it affected me on how to get past it.
Josué:Or, like, I have accepted x, y, or z, and I I feel like that's a permanent upgrade. That's my position. Argue with me or or let me know what you think.
Link:I I think that the most obvious skill set that this that you you do keep would be going to a first meeting with a therapist. Because the first time you do that, you don't know what to expect. It's scary. Everything's new. You don't know what kind of questions you're gonna get asked.
Link:Hopefully hopefully, you find a therapist you like the first time, but most people don't. And so you have to go and do it again. You gotta find new people. You gotta find new therapists and do that same intro first level, but you, the player, the therapy haver, have a have a little bit more knowledge and skill as to what is going to happen there, and it's less no anxiety inducing, but less anxiety inducing because you have a little bit of an idea of what to expect. It doesn't really apply to broader things that you learn about yourself in therapy, but it is a direct, like, skill set that you do improve on over time.
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:I I don't know why when you're saying that, it made me think of, like, going to the gym where you can go to the gym for two years and then stop going for two years and you you lose all your progress. You're like Sam I said at the beginning of the game, like, you lost everything. Right? Like, you've lost all that muscle. You really that's not a permanent upgrade that you get.
Josué:Those things kind of you do learn some knowledge and some skills on maybe how to do it, but you you're not capable of lifting what you could lift before if you stop training and and and doing that. So in in a way, that's kinda similar, but I still feel like like there are things that can happen in therapy that are permanent unlocks, right, that you don't lose when you come back. And maybe it's separate from the skills piece. And I think that's also, like, my my focus and my mindset lately has been this is not, like, a debate for this episode, although I'm happy to to have it. But it's like, I've been differentiating very strongly between behavioral health and mental health, like the skills piece and the changing of behavior versus trauma and emotions and and and that type of work that can be very, very different.
Josué:Right? And it's like the difference between oh, like, we're talking about the physical stuff. Right? Like like, physical therapy where you're learning to walk again or or do things slightly differently is different than the actual building of the muscle and and and maintenance of it. And so, like, I keep thinking about, like, the behavioral aspect versus all this other stuff, and I feel like the things that Kratos gained in the game and things that I'm thinking about so I'm convincing myself now of the roguelike as well.
Josué:Mhmm. Right? Because I'm thinking of it specifically in the sense of, like, that trauma piece. Right? Like, Kratos is not learning particular behavioral skills.
Josué:We could argue that it's it's it's cognitive. Right? But, really, his breakthrough is not in coming up with a new way, like a a reframing of information and something to tell himself when when, you know, when when he confronts a particular thing. It's like he's having very deep he's he's having a very deep retrospective experience, and he's he's having a very deep change that I think only comes from trauma work, right, where you where you are having that's a permanent that that's why I think that it's a permanent unlock. Right?
Josué:Like, I don't think that you like, when you reach those things, you don't necessarily sure. Some behaviors may may go back, but, like, those permanent unlocks in terms of of trauma are I feel like they're permanent. And that's
Link:I think I think that that that makes sense to me. Yeah. I think applying that to roguelite roguelike games, the games that have a narrative to them. Hades is the the one I'm directly thinking of, but it does also apply to binding of Isaac is as you, the player, get better and you get further into the game, you learn more about the the story. And once you hit that point, you you can't unknow that.
Link:And so that is a permanent piece of knowledge that you have gained. And I think that that is a a great metaphor for in therapy is like, of course, you're working on trying to build up skills and tools for you to deal with future events that you you know, to prepare as much as you can. But looking back at something that happened to you and having that big reframing moment is much more like you finally get to the end of Hades and you find out, you know, big plot reveal. And you're like, oh. And even though it's like, okay, we're restarting.
Link:Same thing with Binding of Isaac. You find out like, oh, that's what's happening here. And it's this big moment. You can't un unlearn that knowledge even if you are losing all of the skills and the experience points and equipment and all of that stuff.
Lara:That reminds me of any time someone comes in to meet with me and I ask, how are things going? Like, how's your week been? And it's like, something you said last week really stuck with me. And I've been thinking about it ever since. And I'm like, oh, no.
Lara:What what did I actually say? Because there's a lot I say a lot of things in an hour. Like, I don't and I don't it could be something really small, could be some bigger thing, and it's just like, something you said really stuck with me. And then I thought about this, and I thought about that, and I thought about this. And it's interesting this way.
Lara:I live in that world between the behavioral and the mental health. Right? I work for a company that in that takes insurance. So I have to do the more behavioral health stuff, even though I love working with more mental health, the emotions, all of that. But there is a blend there
Josué:Of course.
Lara:Where a CBT reframe, me just making an off comment about how can we think about this a little differently? Oh, I've never even thought about it that way. And then they think about it for a whole week, and then it spirals into this big conversation that can be a breakthrough. Right? So they can be two different things.
Lara:But like everything with humans, it's all interconnected.
Marc:It's it's funny that you say that, Lara, because I actually had a moment like that with one of my clients that it was I saw him yesterday and we were talking. And I was asking him, like, you know, how things have been because, you know, I see him every other week. And he was like, you know, something that you he's like, you know, what you told me, like, last in our last session, like, I really needed to hear that. Like, it it was like, he started thinking things differently. And I I was I I kinda, like, made some, like, generalized comments trying to use, like, his you know, he's very connected to his faith.
Marc:So I was using some more general terminology because I'm obviously not the most familiar. But just even in the way that I was saying it and like posing it as like, well, how can we use that to to view this situation or view these thoughts that you're having and your feelings towards it a little differently? And that's clicked. That that was, like, the the clicking piece. He's like, he's like, damn.
Marc:You know? I I I never thought of it that way. Like
Lara:Mhmm.
Marc:And then over the past couple of weeks, he's talking about, like, how he's been starting to make these small changes in his daily routine to kind of build on that. But kinda when you Jose, also something that you were talking about, like, with Kratos and, like, how going with, like, this behavioral mental health piece and, like, a lot of it comes from, like, the deep conversation that he's having, like, in the in between parts. That got me thinking about the documentary piece because there are parts in in the documentary where when the inmates or when one of the, you know, the guests are there and they get to that edge where they're starting to confront the things that they've been, like, build spending so much time to build a defense around. When you see them get to that, you you see, like, the sometimes the physical outbursts, and you see, like, all that raw emotion just come right out, and you see them crying. You see them starting to lash out, and they're holding him back.
Marc:Like, they'll like, the inmates and everybody, like, they have each other's back. Like, they're restraining them, but allowing them to continue to feel that. They're like, let it out. Like, let it be be known. Let it be shown.
Marc:Like, you've been holding this back. So, like, we got you. We'll we're gonna support you. And the I mean, I I haven't played really any of the god of wars, so I don't know entirely. But just based on war.
Marc:God yeah. Sorry. The gods of war. But based on what I know from how, like, they from watching the whole review and and kinda seeing some gameplay of it, I think a lot of the like, I think I can make, like, I can make the comparison that, like, going through the different stages and the different rooms where you're fighting the different randomized enemies, especially after, like, Kratos is having one of those deeper conversations about sort of his past and confronting that trauma, that's those stages that follow are him kind of letting out that raw emotion that comes from him trying to run away from it for so long and now finally confronting it, it's all there. And so he's he's letting it out in that way.
Marc:You know, he's taking out a bunch of enemies, but he's learning to let go of all that that he's run away from, all the fear, the, you know, anger, rage, all of it. And then as he continues through the journey and he's continuing to make these connections, that's him sort of beginning to look at everything. Not necessarily, like I I don't know if it would be a reframe, but they've always talked about how he's, like, looking at it from a different perspective. You're not trying to reprocess. And they mentioned this in the documentary too.
Marc:They're like they're they mentioned that the goal is to not really try to reprocess, retrain, or do anything like that. The goal of the groups is to simply look at the issue or look at the problem or look at yourself from a different perspective and take a look at it from a different angle just to see how it might look a little different. So instead of continuing to tell yourself the same thing you've been telling yourself, you're shifting it. So now it's like
Josué:You're procedurally generated.
Marc:Yeah. You're procedurally generating it to be a different a different kind of perception of what you're viewing even though it's the same thing.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I think having played the game, I I think that it's it's valuable. It could be valuable to some people to see the, like, release of the of the anger, right, like, as part of the the process. I haven't seen the documentary.
Josué:I'm only basing this, like, on the game and my opinions on on this in general. I don't think that, like I don't believe that practicing your anger is a good way of like, I think that anything that you practice, you get better at. Right?
Marc:So, like,
Josué:having an outburst that's not to say that sometimes, like, it can be it can't be cathartic to, you know, like, let something out as part of of a healing process. In the game, I feel like it is it does two two things. Chris, what you think? One is to take him back to where he was before. Right?
Josué:So, like, oh, we're in Greece now and you're fighting enemies that you used to fight fight in Greece. It's, like, to get him into the mindset of, like, now we're here. But on the other hand, it's also to the game is not a walking therapy simulator. Right? And so, like, the work, there's actual like like, it is a climb.
Josué:Right? And so it represents kind of the struggle of his progressing with I guess, the game, they're literal, but they're actually, in the game, they're kind of figurative too because he's in Valhalla, so everything is really in his head. It's not it's not a real monster. But sometimes, like, right, the monsters get bigger, and, like, he has to surpass this, you know, giant I don't know. I don't know.
Josué:Whatever mythic beast has to come up for him to, like, then have that reflection period of with with the other characters to kind of, like, okay. Now you like, you've unlocked this next part of therapy, which which will like, you've unlocked the next insight in a way. I don't honestly, the like, it's done really well, and it's not lots of times, we look at something as a metaphor for something else. Sometimes it's closer. It's like, oh, this is just like a straight up analogy.
Josué:In this case, it is actual therapy for Kratos. Like, there is no like like, they call it the work, the language that they use. And even when you finish the main storyline of this expansion and you kind of reach the end, it says, hey. If you want, you can go for more runs, and you will unlock additional memories and upgrades. There is no end to self improvement.
Josué:Like, it's it's just literal. Like, it's not it's not messing around. It's not, you know, suggesting something. It is just telling you, hey. Kratos can
Link:You you just know that somebody was like, we we have to add this line in because people are not getting it.
Josué:Yeah. So yep. It's still not obvious enough.
Link:Everybody said it was it was too on the nose to call it the work, but our players aren't getting it.
Lara:Yep. Yep. Oh,
Link:you've unlocked the therapy axe. Okay. Maybe this is helping. It
Josué:is it is it is so good. One one last thing I'll mention is that the game also has a support system for Kratos. So as part of this, you're in a location that's completely separate from the other games, and there are five characters, and they are all there in a supportive role. Two are literally telling you stories about their life that they believe might be helpful to you. So they're, like, sharing their stories with you, relating with you, and they are also cheering you on between between the different runs.
Josué:So it's like, you're doing great. Like, I knew you could do it. Like, keep keep keep it up. Right? Come to me if you have any questions.
Josué:Right? They don't provide anything else but, like, this kind of just moral support. There's three characters actually that do that. And then there's one who's with you almost all the time, literally physically with you at all times. And he is very much a voice of of reason and very, very close to him, but he's also a good friend.
Josué:And I think that there are things that he is telling him like, Kratos won't listen to him as much because he is a friend even though he is playing a very supportive, and I would say, like, therapeutic role. And then there's another character who's like, you don't meet until further down the road, who's really the only person who can really help Kratos with what he's dealing with, that, like, could really understand him, can really help him move forward. And that person, I feel, probably plays the the the therapist role the most because he challenges you when he's, like, fucking boss fights, right, like, all the time. Like, you're fighting him, but also has the biggest insight and provide helps you reach the biggest yeah. The biggest reflection, biggest insights, and kind of helps you realize the moment when maybe you are like, do you think like, he'll ask you, do you think you're ready to walk through that door now?
Josué:And Kratos will be like, no. I still have more to reflect on. He's like, okay. No problem. And then finally, he helps you realize.
Josué:Right? He's like, do you think you're ready now? He's like, yeah. Think I'm ready as it goes through. So the game like, it's just amazing.
Josué:Like like, the the whole game is just it's it's really good. It's really good. I highly I highly recommend it. But I think I think this conversation has established that, at least, I find it a helpful metaphor to look at games like this where you can progress. And we've we've talked about different games, you know, where you you have different stat upgrades and and armor upgrades and stuff like that.
Josué:But there's something about this. You're going through it again and again and again, and it's not always exactly the same. Things change, but kind of you're always moving towards the same goal even though the the things get remixed in between every time you go through. It's not the same exercise routine. Right?
Josué:Like, every time things are a little different. And, yeah, I really think therapy therapy is like that. Any closing thoughts about this idea, this concept?
Link:I really love rugby games.
Marc:When when you first brought up this topic, I didn't know quite what to think. And I think actually watching through the video, watching the documentary, and kind of sitting with that for a while, that kind of helped me gain, like, a much better understanding of, like, what the whole point was and and what you were saying. And I was like, oh, now I get it. And now I really wanna play God of War now. Thank you.
Josué:Really, this is all
Lara:about game.
Josué:This is really not not about the point of the game, but the point of you as a therapist and a facilitator in this process as well. Right? Like, I don't know. It helped helped me both as a client and and as a practitioner think about, like, oh, yeah. Like, this because I think I used to get very frustrated with that part of it, of having we're doing this again, and we're doing this again, and we're doing this again from both sides.
Josué:I would get pretty frustrated. But but this conversation has made me feel this topic has made me feel better about it.
Lara:Now I just wanna hold out, like, a plate of different, like, upgrades for people every week. See you next week. What are you gonna take with you this week?
Josué:It it's funny what you said about, like, how your your client was like, oh, I thought about something that you said last week. I tell my therapist that I have a a version of her, like, fake version of her that I debate with and argue with throughout the week, usually built based on something that she said during during our session.
Lara:Will tell me that they hear my voice in their head, and that first time I heard that really weirded me out.
Josué:Because you don't like hearing your voice in your head. I don't
Lara:like hearing my own voice. I can hear my voice in my head because it sounds different from what I hear on the podcast.
Josué:So Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you for listening. Please let us know what your favorite roguelikes and roguelites are.
Josué:Which ones do you think work with the therapy metaphor? Which parts of the conversation were you yelling, you know, at us at? And what would you like to add? You do that in any of our community spaces. The links are in the show notes.
Josué:Visit geektherapy.org for more geek therapy. Remember to geek out into good. I'll be back next week.
Lara:Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
