The Space Between Knowing & Understanding, and How Stories Bridge that Gap
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I'm joined by Lara Taylor.
Lara:Hey.
Josué:And Marc Cuiriz. Yo. Marc Cuiriz leading today's conversation.
Marc:Oh my goodness. What are
Josué:we talking about?
Marc:See, it's funny because you were you were tell you were saying like, oh, you're gonna lead this, and I was getting full on ready to do the whole intro. Then you just started, and I was like, oh, okay. Okay. I'll let you do it. Yeah.
Marc:So I know I mentioned it, I think, like, a few episodes ago that I have been going through and I've been playing through the new God of War, the 2018 God of War game. Because when we talked about Valhalla, really got me interested to go back and and finish it.
Lara:Glad you clarified that the new one was in 2018 because that was six years ago.
Marc:I know. Know. Right? So I have been replaying it, and I am just past the part where Atreus learns that he's a god and, you know, he's been kind of going his his behaviors and his mannerisms have been changing, and then they get sent to hell, and then they have to kind of fight their way back. And through this whole thing, like hearing Kratos kinda talk to him about what's been kinda going on and saying like, oh, this isn't you.
Marc:Like, this is not who you are. And those sorts of things really got me thinking because this was I I forget if they explicitly mentioned this, but the way I saw it was Atreus had learned that he is a god. So he has now been given this knowledge that Kratos has been trying so hard to not disclose to him. And when he finally knows it, it kinda goes to his head. So he knows what's going on, but he doesn't fully understand the implications of that or like what's what that means.
Marc:What it means to be a god. Something that in the original God of War series, through the the gameplay and videos that I've watched on it, that's basically what Kratos is learning. It's like what it means to be a god, and ultimately his disagreements with the Greek gods. So in this case, I'm watching Atreus and I'm watching him do basically become full of himself because he's like, oh, I'm a god. I can do whatever I want.
Marc:And he's sort of recreating the mistakes that one, Kratos was making, and two, what all the other gods have been making. They're getting full of themselves and like, oh, I can do what I want. I'm gonna let myself be this way. Now I'm a god. I know I know better.
Marc:I can do better, or I can do what I want because people just don't understand, or I have all this power. And Kratos is kind of teaching him or trying to the way I saw it was Kratos was not wanting to disclose this to him for this exact reason. It's like he doesn't know that he's a god. He doesn't want him to know that he's a god because he's afraid of what that will do to him. And when he can't keep it a secret any longer and it does come out, ultimately, we see that kind of play play out where he lets it get to his head.
Marc:He gets full of himself, and then he starts making careless mistakes, or he starts getting so aggravated because he wants to know more and learn more, but he's having a hard time with grasping and understanding what he already knows. And for me, I like playing through it and watching the cut scenes and everything, it made me think back to past, you know, things that are going on in my life where I learned things or I became aware of things, but I never truly understood the implications with that or like the effect of those things were. And had I had that understanding, the decisions I made would have probably been vastly different. So, yeah, that's that's kind of the the basic gist of what's been kinda going through my head over the last week. What are your thoughts?
Josué:Some examples. Gotta give some examples. Yeah. Can't be
Marc:Yeah. Yeah. I I was kinda hoping that you guys could could lead by example. You guys are the older ones. You guys have you guys are the 40 year olds.
Marc:You guys have all the experience.
Lara:We're all 40, Marc.
Josué:We're all 40. No. No. But you said you you said that there's a few different versions of this that have come up for you recently. So I'm I'm curious, like, what kind of things
Marc:I you can I wouldn't say recently, but I would say, like, throughout my life? So, like, for example, the the biggest one for me is, you know, when I was around 10 or 11, my mom had come forth and was kind of disclosing to me and my brother that her and my dad were getting a divorce. And so she's trying to explain all of these things and the concept and what that means for how things are going moving forward and kind of explaining the situation to us. And so like I knew the I learned about what was kind of in play and the situation that was happening between my parents, even though I probably shouldn't have. But I I learned about these things.
Marc:I became aware of what was happening, but I didn't understand that. So my interpretation of how everything was going was different than let's say my brother, who when my brother is younger than me. So he's becoming aware of these things at a younger age and he's not fully understanding what's happening. So me and him have two very different reactions to what's happening. And, you know, as I'm older and I understand a little bit more or I have a full a better understanding of the whole situation at play, like my like my general reaction to it is a lot different.
Marc:But obviously I was exposed to that at a young age. So because I didn't have that understanding of what a divorce was or what the situation was that ultimately led to it, I reacted to it in a different way or the decisions that I made moving forward when it came to interacting with both of my parents were changed and were different than what they may have been had I had a full better understanding or a full understanding of what was happening.
Josué:So is that like, in in my case, when my parents got divorced, it destroyed me. But eventually, I was like, oh, that's the best thing they could have done. So is that the kind of thing? Yeah. Like, the type of understanding Yeah.
Josué:You you're you're talking about?
Marc:Yeah. Yeah. Like, I ultimately, I would I would say, like, like, now I'm like, okay. Like, it was probably for the best because they both were not healthy for one another. I wouldn't say it was necessarily the best because, obviously, they both made choices later, like, after the fact that they were not great.
Marc:But but ultimately, like, I think, like, it it was a good decision on both their parts to kind of, you know, call it quits.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. There are well, yeah. Lara?
Lara:I mean, there are a lot of examples that I thought of I say a lot, but a couple that are tangential. But the thing I can think of most in my own life is, like, when I was eight, my grandmother told me that my brother and sister were not my real brother and sister. She used those words. They are my half brother and sister by blood. My adopted them, and she was trying to tell me in a way that, like, they had a different biological dad.
Lara:I couldn't understand that, like, as an eight year old. So, like, it it wrecked me, and I came home crying, and it caused this huge, like, rift in the family. But, like, I didn't understand that that didn't actually change anything for for me or my sister or my brother or my family. Like, they are still my brother and my sister. I've never thought of them as anything other than, like, my full brother and sister and my dad is their dad.
Lara:That is just the way it is. But having this extra knowledge caused a lot of chaos for many years. But even then, as a kid, you can't understand what that means, especially using that wording. It's interesting that you bring up this concept, Marc, as the knowing. I think you mentioned when you pitched the idea that knowing isn't always a good thing.
Lara:Mhmm. And I'm trying to bring this up without too many spoilers for Ragnarok. But like, there's another thing that Kratos is keeping from Atreus in in Ragnarok.
Josué:Technically, he doesn't know either. Nobody knows.
Lara:But but he has information about something that could happen.
Josué:Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:Okay.
Lara:He and he is keeping this from Atreus so that it doesn't alter their relationship, and that it doesn't influence it so that they can just have this time and be them. So yeah. That was what came up for me when talking about, like, you're talking about and I'm like, Kratos didn't learn his lesson. He didn't just straight up tell him. But in this way, he's not telling him not to just, like, keep Atreus from being cocky or becoming one of the gods.
Lara:But this is like he wants to keep his son essentially a kid, right, and have time with him. So yeah. Didn't make that connection before playing those games so separately, but now thanks, Marc. Yeah. Kratos doesn't learn his lessons.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Yeah. No. That's a good example that we can't get into more because Marc hasn't played the game.
Marc:I guarantee you anything we talk about, I'm gonna forget about it because it's still gonna be a long time before I play it.
Josué:That maybe. But I'm I'm curious about what Laura just said. You did say like it when it's not a good thing
Marc:Mhmm.
Josué:Sometimes to know. Like, what do mean by
Lara:That whole feeling that the the ignorance is bliss. Right?
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm.
Marc:Yeah. And there's like a few different well, I would say it's still kind of in the continuation with God of War, but it's really just kind of like Norse mythology in general. But also, I think about it funny enough with Percy Jackson, because they make that they they explicitly will say that several times throughout the book. The the series themselves is like, hey. Like, knowing too much about your future is ultimately a bad thing because the more you know, the more you're gonna wanna try and change things, or you're gonna try and do things to deliberately make things happen.
Marc:And when you think about it in Norse mythology, like, that's ultimately what Odin's goal is. He's seeking knowledge and he's seeking wisdom to find ways to alter what will inevitably happen. In this case, like, for him, knowledge, he's constantly seeking knowledge, but it's not always good because when he learns about his fate or Thor's fate or the fate of the whole world and the realms, now he's he's looking for ways to change it and to make to make it different, which ultimately consumes you. And when you know too much about something that's happening, if you don't want that thing to happen, then you're gonna try and do everything you can to change that or to make it different. So that way, in in the hopes that there's a different outcome, which can lead you to ruminating, could lead to, like, just being consumed with all these different thoughts and can just kinda laid you down a a spiral.
Josué:But it could also be helpful. Right? Like Mhmm. Like, what's the difference between a warning? You know, like like, what what makes it like, how how is what you're describing different from just being warned about a potential future?
Marc:And that's the thing is that, like, I think it's like a it's a very thin line about what what can be used as like a warning or like as a way to kind of for the benefit of the person and when it's gonna be harmful. And I think it it all it's always really gonna depend on the person and who they are. And you're it ultimately will come down to your to the person's judgment who's disclosing the information of like, do I think that this person is in a place that can handle this information, that can handle this knowledge and it's gonna be beneficial for them, or it's crucial or it's important for them to know it, and can they cope with it? Can they manage it? Especially if it's like a negative news.
Marc:You I can think of like, you know, you think of instances with like kids and, you know, when they lose a pet or they lose a loved one, trying to explain that. It's like how much you really let them know about what's going on and will they be able to understand it? That's always question that's always like, oh, how do you word it or how do you explain it to them in a way that they're going to not only know what's happening, but also understand what's happening? Because a lot of times people will just say like, oh, it's this. And like, know, it's you know, like with pets, it's like they went over the Rainbow Bridge or they went to a farm or, you know, whatever it is that they wanna say.
Marc:So they know that the pet's gone, but they don't understand like what what happened.
Lara:Which in which in my opinion is bullshit. Kids kids you have to be clear with kids and give them the facts because otherwise, they get confused. Like parents say, Oh, grandpa went to sleep or whatever forever. And then it's like, Oh, now if I go to sleep, will I go to sleep forever? For the most part, kids learning about death earlier on is not a bad thing if it's something that goes on and has happened in their life.
Lara:It's just a matter of, again, like you said, age appropriate, figuring out how to word it, but usually telling kids about death. Good thing. Link's not here to talk about death positivity, so I guess I'm the one having to fill that role.
Josué:Like with all things, it's the parents fault. If that doesn't go well, if the parent is is uncomfortable speaking about death, and doesn't know how to touch the subject, they're gonna do stuff like that. Right? Like, like, the whole idea of like, oh, they're not gonna handle it. Like you can't handle it.
Josué:You don't know how to talk to people about death. You think that your kid isn't gonna handle it because you are incapable of handling that.
Lara:The joke on TV all the time is the adult is like, you told me that the dog went to the farm and, like, live a happy life or whatever. And they feel lied to. Right? And betrayed. Yeah.
Lara:Or look stupid because they're an adult who believes that their dog is still alive on a farm somewhere twenty five years later.
Josué:But it is very much like, yeah, the parent causing a different problem, trying to avoid wanting creating a different one. I don't I don't know how off topic we're going from the original theme of what you're what you want to discuss, Marc. But this reminded me of, like, diagnosed with a terminal illness.
Marc:And
Josué:then you can there's a bunch of stuff that you can do. But just for I mean, you know, one extreme is that then you start to do everything possible to prevent that from happening. You try to cure it, you try to change it, you try to do everything possible. You can deny it, you can work against it, etcetera. And then you end up living the last years of your life struggling, right?
Josué:Like, your life turns into trying not to die. On the other extreme, there is the okay, how do I want to spend the last few years of my life? Yeah. Am I gonna am I gonna live? Am I gonna do things that I enjoy?
Josué:Am I gonna, you know, bring out that bucket list? Am I going to spend it with people I care about? What am I going to do? It's such a different you know, it depends on how you take that information, right, from the future and what and what you're gonna do with it. I don't know that that one goes so much into learning and understanding.
Josué:But but that's one that's one thing that came to mind that I've been thinking a lot about lately.
Marc:Mhmm. Well, I think in that case, like, you know, when you learn that you have, like, in that in that example of, like, learning that you have, like, a terminal illness, That knowledge, we all have our own reactions to it, but ultimately I think that that can lead to a greater understanding either about yourself or about just how you lived your life and understanding. And like that creates that understanding like, okay, like this is what I've done with my life or this is what I how I want to live my life.
Josué:And understanding what matters to you. Right? That wasn't clear to you before.
Marc:Yeah. So it's like either understanding like, hey, I want to cherish the time that I have left, and do the things that I enjoy and spend it with the people I care about. Or is it the idea simply just being on the earth longer and and having that that fight to survive for as long as you can and trying to change and take control of fate? I think that that's in and of itself a good example of like what knowledge is and how that knowledge this is like an example of like where it can be good. Of like it it can cause you to change and shift your perspective into how you're gonna either view yourself or you're gonna view the world around you.
Marc:And in terms of, like, media, like, I see this in a lot of the games that I play. The two games specifically that come to my mind is Assassin's Creed Unity and Black Flag, where both both of the main characters, Edward and Arno, they they learn about the creed, and they they know about what's going on in the world, and they lack the understanding of it in the beginning of the game. And then as you go through the journey, they make these consequences based off the knowledge that they have, but without the understanding. Ultimately, they their actions then create consequences that they have to to live with, that they have to work through. And it's only at the end of the game when they they have their little monologues do they actually have a fuller understanding of what the creed represents or what it means to them, and how are they gonna choose to live their life moving forward from it.
Marc:I think that's most of the Assassin's Creed games like that kind of talk like that's that's the whole premise of like, gain the knowledge. And now what do you do with that knowledge? How do you understand it?
Josué:Mhmm.
Marc:Are you and in Black Flag's case like that, to him, it was like, just can do whatever I want. There's no rules, nothing that ties me. Chase every desire. But only at the end of the game does he realize, like, no. It's it's there's much more to it than just that.
Marc:And he has his own understanding, and Arno is the same way. He has an understanding, and he's like, no, I it it serves as more of a warning of the dangers of going after whatever you want. As opposed to, you know, just living your life however you want. Screw the rules. You know, screw the monarchy, all that stuff.
Lara:Reminds me, like, my brain is now starting to wake up after a day of seven clients in a row. Having talked to several people this week about not being able to know something but not understand something until you're in it. Right. Like, I have a client who foster fostered a kid, adopted a kid. Right.
Lara:So you take these classes to prepare yourself for the kid being in your home and how you're gonna take care of them. How what's your parenting style and all of that? You have no idea. You think you can know that, like, this is this is happening. This kid with some trauma is coming into my home and not have any understanding of what that's actually going to mean until they're there and they're in it and you're having to set boundaries and have bedtimes and school and talk them through memories that they're having and things like that.
Lara:As someone Marc, you're in grad school as and you're doing your intern hours now, but, like, they try to prepare you. You know about all these disorders and symptoms and experiences. And until you're in it and meeting with clients, you have no idea what it's going to be like and have no understanding of what it's gonna be like to meet with those clients. I I have a wife who has ADHD. I have I knowingly went into the relationship knowing she had ADHD and had no understanding of what it meant to live with someone with ADHD on a daily basis.
Lara:And even as someone who lives with her, I will never understand what it's like to be in her brain. And I can know these are the things that are going on, the executive dysfunction, the time, blindness, all of that. But I will never understand what it's like to be in her brain and and experience that. Right? So this idea of knowing and understanding, you can't really you can't understand it until you're doing it, essentially, even with all the preparation beforehand.
Lara:Preparation is important and a good thing. But it doesn't it doesn't give you a full picture of what's gonna happen in life.
Josué:It's funny. There There's that I I I can I can get behind that? You can learn something on paper and not until you go through the experience, will you? Will it make sense? Right?
Josué:I think I said last week, like, if I if I spoke to a past version of myself and I told them about the future, like, they wouldn't understand. It wouldn't it wouldn't make a difference what I told them because it wouldn't it just wouldn't make sense to them. They would know that information, but they wouldn't be able to understand. And but like, that part, I understand. I understand.
Josué:That part makes sense to me. But there's there's like a different type of understanding. Maybe it's it's different. Because in a simple way, it reminds me of playing a video game, like a fighting game, where you learn all the moves. But then one day you're like, oh, this is how the mechanics work.
Josué:This is how the timing works. This is the system. Right? It's like then you can see the matrix and now you actually Mhmm. Like, it's a completely different experience.
Josué:You don't you still have all that same original information, But it's like, it didn't matter. And it's not even a matter, like, I don't I don't believe that that just comes from the experience of playing the game or going through the motions. There's still something at a cognitive level that happens when things like like you go from ten eighty p to four k. Right? It's like there's this clarity.
Josué:You're like, oh, now I know I get it. I've I've I've had that happen a lot with technical things in my life. And and I read a lot of nonfiction because there's a lot that I want to learn. And most of those things I never even get the chance to practice. But but sometimes through more reading, through, like, deeper reading, I can understand things.
Josué:I can get to a point of understanding. Like, I remember I had a student who reached out to me a couple of years ago. I hadn't taught him in years. And he he just sent me this question about like, how do you feel about, like, podcasts and audiobooks, I think is what he said. Like, do you think that like, what is the value of short form short form versus long form content?
Josué:And I told him, like, I I was I was discussing the value that I think that both of them have. But for the long form, it's this idea of revisiting an idea from multiple perspectives, from multiple angles, where then it's like once you start connecting multiple dots, it's the same original information. But once it starts connecting to the real world, to your life, you can see more of that cause and effect, then it becomes I think then that's what I think of an understanding. There is clarity. I don't think that you know that you're not aware that you don't understand until you do.
Josué:Right? In most cases, like you how can you not operate under the assumption that you have the information and therefore you have the information needed to make a decision or to move forward. You don't know that that's not true. Or you don't know how unprepared you were, or how much you misunderstood the the information until until you do. Mhmm.
Josué:I think. No. I think that's generally how it goes.
Marc:Yeah. And I've I'm a 100% would agree. Like, even in through, like, God of War, like, Atreus doesn't understand that like, he he doesn't know that he doesn't understand the implications of being a god and what that means and the responsibilities that come along with it. He's just throwing off that power and throwing out all this stuff because he's like, hell yeah, I'm a god. And it's only once they're in hell and then he sees that this like shadow apparition of his past actions and Kratos reprimanding him for it, does like it start to sink in.
Marc:It's like, oh, like, I'm a god, but I understand absolutely nothing about what that means. I have no idea what that means to be a god. Like, what I originally thought is maybe not the best. Yeah. And then, I mean, I haven't progressed far enough, so I'm not sure where it goes from there yet.
Marc:But I'd like to think that, like, he starts to go on his own journey of, like, figuring out what that means to him, and he creates that understanding for himself, whether it's through experiences or, you know, whatever the case might be. But I also think that what you said about gaining a sense of a greater sense of clarity through more reading or more knowledge, things like that. Like, I do think it's possible. I'm not saying that it it's not. I just think that, I guess, it it depends on the kind of person that you are.
Marc:Because in some cases, seeking more knowledge can only further impair the ability to understand, I think. But also in your like, in in case that you were talking about specifically with yourself, like, in this case, like, doing that additional reading because I would imagine for you, like, when you're doing those readings, you're also reading it from, like, maybe a different author or you're you're taking a look at it from a different perspective when you're reading more about it, which then creates that that creates that opportunity to gain the additional clarity. It's not just from the same person that you're reading over and over again. It's the same topic, but from this author's perspective or from this writer's point of view or, you know, whatever the case is.
Josué:Like, within even GT theory, the way that I put position that is that you may be experiencing something, and that there's value in seeing it from a third person perspective, playing out in a movie, in a game, in a story, in a book, right? You're like, oh, that's similar to me, but it's not the same. And I feel a particular way about it. And then it's like, okay, now I have a completely different angle that I'm looking at the same thing from. And now there's additional clarity that comes to that.
Josué:And, yeah, where that line it's a good point. Like, at what point do you actually understand it? If you have more information, do you do you just add to the belief that you understand even when you don't? Or when do you actually hit that point? I mean, it depends.
Josué:We're we're talking in general terms, but I think it definitely depends.
Marc:Yeah. And I think, like, like you said, we're we're doing it. We're trying to be very general with it, but I think like we could even go even deeper and take a look at like, okay. Well, what what does it mean to understand something? And it could just delve into a whole philosophical thing
Josué:from Try
Marc:it. I'm not gonna listen. Lara's on, like, twenty four plus hours of no sleep. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try it. I'm not gonna try that now.
Marc:Maybe another time. Stay tuned for the next philosophical episode, but it's not tonight. Tonight.
Josué:But I I do think there is something about, you know, when you when you like watching a mystery, right, where you start building it up and you start having all these different pieces of information. And the truth is that, like, you know something happened, you know, you know that this person died, this thing was stolen, this thing broke, this thing, whatever. Right? And then then as you continue to move on, you're like, oh, okay, there's more and more pieces getting filled in. And then sometimes it's that final piece.
Josué:It's like, oh, now you have the motive. Right? Or like, now you understand all the steps, and then the whole thing makes sense, you know, where it didn't before. Maybe you didn't realize it. Maybe you just accepted what it was.
Josué:But a new piece of information can completely change memories, history, like so many parts of of your life or even just one experience. I think that, you know, there's a lot of stories that that play out that way. Sometimes you it's like it's in the sequel where you learn, like, why things are the way they are. Like, it adds layers to it that add to to again, like you said, it's hard to use the word understanding because it could be, I think, defined it can be used in many different ways. I'm sure the dictionary has a very succinct definition for it.
Josué:But as we're as as we talk about it, we we use it differently. Mhmm.
Marc:Yeah. I'm as we're talking, like, I 'm hearing snippets of like old pieces of media that I remember watching or, you know, playing and stuff like that as, you know, throughout my 40 years of life.
Lara:And
Marc:it's weird because I'm hearing it. I can I can can hear it in my head, but I cannot pull what what the name of it is or like the title or anything like that? So like it's there and I'm like, I'm trying to think of like other things of like where someone is gifted with knowledge and ultimately it's like altering like like they're not fully understanding what it is that they were given or, like, they're trying like, they don't fully understand, like, why they were given that piece of knowledge. And then we kind of, like, how they how they deal with that, how they cope with that, and how they how they move forward from it. But I I it's it's so funny because I'm hearing it.
Marc:Can't see it, but I can hear it in my head.
Josué:I can I can I can think of a few examples? Let's see. I'm I'm super gonna random across the board and then see if any of these resonate with you. I'm thinking of Star Wars and the prophecy of The Chosen One, where there's no answer to that. And people and people interpret it in different ways, even even now, right?
Josué:It's like, is it who exactly was the chosen one? Is it Anakin? What does it mean to bring balance to the force? Did he achieve that goal? Did he not achieve that goal?
Josué:And how did people throughout the story act and behave depending on their interpretation of that prophecy? So there's a lot of stories about prophecy that, you know, that have prophecies and that play out into that kind of thing. And sometimes sometimes you do get clarity of like, oh, that's what the prophecy actually meant. But everybody assumed that they meant different different things.
Marc:Mhmm.
Josué:Very different example. In the Legend of Zelda, in both in both the Breath of the Wild and Shears of the Kingdom, you get and I brought this up in a recent episode where, like, I have all these powers. But, like, it took me a long, long time to realize, like, oh, this is how they all work together. This is how I can do things. Or even, like, I remember, you know, like, don't remember if you it was the same boss fight for you, Lara.
Josué:But for me, it was the the thunder one in the first game where, like
Lara:The the camel. I hate it.
Marc:Yeah. I couldn't I
Josué:couldn't but but it's like but it's so you have everything that you need to accomplish it and you have all the information
Lara:what you have to do. But your brain can't understand how to put the controls together.
Josué:Well, I didn't understand what to do exactly. Oh. I knew all the pieces that I had, but I didn't know exact like, and once I knew once I knew, I was like, oh, because this connects to this and they work together this way. Boom. Of course.
Josué:Obviously.
Lara:See, my problem was before even getting to the inside of that one, I knew exactly what I needed to do with the, like, the the sand surfing on the shield, right, with the with the Uh-huh. With the the sand seals. And I knew I needed to aim at the certain targets and all that, but I just physically couldn't my brain could not understand how to do it.
Marc:I don't I
Josué:don't know if understanding is the right word for for
Lara:searching But I physically couldn't do it. But I knew what I had to do, and I just couldn't do
Marc:it. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is little different.
Lara:And you know I would have this problem inside the temple too. Great. Glad I just skipped right to tears of the kingdom after after
Marc:that. That. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. So I think that there are different games that have right? You have all of these different elements. And and if you see, like, you see some of the stuff that people do in Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, where they're using all of the systems together to, like, launch themselves across the map and do all sorts of crazy stuff. And they're not even this isn't even, like, breaking the game with bugs or anything like that.
Josué:They're just using the physics of the game and the tools they have available to do things that I never imagined. And then there's another story again, I'm going like very different versions of examples here, but there's a movie that I saw many years ago. It's called The Hours. And it is a drama. It stars Julianne Moore, Ed Harris, and I cannot remember her name.
Lara:That's the one with, like, three
Josué:Nicole Kidman. Nicole Kidman. Right? And so in the story I I I love this story because or the story of the the movie. It's very sad, but it's about this woman in the fifties who is living the American dream.
Josué:She's She's married, she has a son, housewife, husband seems successful enough, and she is so depressed. She's so depressed. She doesn't understand why. She reads a Virginia Woolf novel, and Nicole Kidman plays Virginia Woolf. And she's reading the novel, or I think I think it's a novel or if it's just like the story of Virginia Woolf, but she's reading this story.
Josué:And then she sees that Virginia Wolf was going through the same, like she felt the same way decades before. She was like, seems successful, but still like something was missing and she was depressed. And by reading that book, helped her understand how she was feeling at the time. She I think I'm remembering the movie correctly. So this is the fifties.
Josué:She kind of has that realization. Like that she's like, she's depressed. She's just like, this life is is making her unhappy. So she decides to leave. So she abandons her husband and her son, and just leaves, and off to live on her own.
Josué:The story skips forward to when her son, now played by Ed Harris, is dying of cancer and she shows up to to see him. He hates her because she abandoned him. And I don't remember the details beyond that point. I don't know what happens in the relationship between them. But as the viewer, you understand why she did what she did.
Josué:Now, when I saw that movie, it helped me understand why my mom abandoned me and my dad when we were younger, because it was very similar reasons. And before I watched that movie, I couldn't really understand why my mom would do that to us. And it still took me a long time to really understand it. But then it made a lot of sense to me. Like
Lara:That's that's so meta, Hosway.
Josué:I know. I know. Triple triple triple meta. And it is it was such a helpful experience to me, like, to see that. And then for me, again, to reach that level of, like, I understood my mom's decisions for the first time.
Josué:I had all the information before. I hadn't even heard her say why she did it. But like, it really didn't click for decades after, until I really understood how miserable she was in that marriage, how difficult it was for her, and how she couldn't see any other way out. And I went from, like, hating her to resenting her to being proud of her for making that decision when she did. Because at that point, I could I could I was removed enough.
Josué:Like, I'm no longer the same kid that was in that situation. I feel bad for that kid. But that kid was never gonna understand what happened. But then now I'm again, like, there's a sense of pride in what my mom did, by putting herself first, instead of just like sacrificing everything of hers, like no longer, like barely being a person in order to satisfy a whole bunch of other people's needs, including her children. Again, like, I would have never understood that decades ago.
Lara:I'm gonna bring it back to God of War. Yeah. I remember the first time we talked about God of War, I brought up that, like, I, as a teenager, watched my dad have to raise a teenage daughter on his own after losing his wife. And I know logically as an even as an adult because I didn't play God of War till six years ago. So I was still in my thirties.
Lara:In my twenties and my early thirties, I did understand. Like, I knew I knew that's hard to do, Be a single parent, especially a dad, not understanding his kid hasn't been around for a while, hasn't really had that connection. And then to be thrown into it in that way, Playing God of War and watching Kratos trying to come to grips with losing his wife and protect his son and do that whole journey through the game helps me understand and appreciate my dad even more for what he did.
Josué:It's the same story as the hours. Right? It's like, I I that movie let me see things through my mom's perspective. God of War let you see things through your dad's perspective.
Lara:Exactly. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. I unfortunately don't have a media that lets
Marc:me see through my mom or my dad yet.
Josué:It's out there.
Lara:It's out there. There's so much media
Marc:out there. Know fact for that it's gotta be out there. I just I just haven't seen it. I haven't consumed it yet. However, you guys did remind me of a book, actually.
Marc:And it's a book actually, I think me and Link talked about here a while ago, which was the Midnight Library. And we know I remember reading through the book and the whole point of the book is like the main character is gaining all this knowledge of all the different lives that they could have lived had they made different choices. So they get the chance to experience it and and they learn things. You know, they they are they're learning things that could have happened or that may have happened had they gone a different route in their life. And ultimately, if they don't under like they gain all that knowledge, but they don't really fully understand like what the purpose of it is and what the purpose of the midnight library is until towards the end when they realize like this is all gearing me towards like, want to live my own life.
Marc:Like, I'm living all these different lives that are technically mine, but they're not mine. And I want to live my life. Even if right now it is pretty shitty, it's still mine, and I want to live it and I want to change things. I want to do better. And then ultimately, you know, making the choice that they wanna live at the end of the book.
Marc:But I think that right there is a good example of, like, learning all this knowledge and and they're continually get continuously getting more knowledge to push them towards gaining that understanding. Kinda like what you were talking about earlier, Josué, of, like, by doing more readings or by gaining more knowledge, you're increasing your your possibility or or your chances of creating a sense of understanding or gaining clarity as to what the what the point of it is of learning all these things.
Josué:So do you have any personal examples, Marc, of information, having information that was detrimental?
Marc:That was detrimental?
Josué:Yeah. Kind of like what you what we brought up at the beginning from your pitch. This idea of, like, having just having the information and not understanding it ended up being Yeah. A bad thing.
Marc:I think I think when my dad went away for the first time, like he was off to prison for the first time, I was 10 years old and kind of learning and gaining the knowledge of like, hey, he's not coming home and he's not going to be coming home for a while. Like as a 10 year old, like that's devastating. And I didn't understand what that meant. I didn't understand what the concept of going away meant. Because that's how it was always phrased to me was they went away.
Marc:And so, like, having that knowledge without really understanding what the point of it was or understanding even the reasoning behind why he was going away just was completely detrimental. Was like, completely demolished me. And then when it happened the second time, I was 18. And so I thought like I had grown up enough, I learned enough, and I had a better understanding of what was happening, but it still ultimately crushed me. And it was only until the third time where I like this point, I had a much better like, I I had been around him enough and I've had enough conversations to kind of understand, like, he's going through his own struggles and this was how he coped with things.
Marc:And ultimately, like he made his decisions and those are his decisions to live with and to take accountability for. And also, you know, for me, like, having an understanding of, like, okay. Like, I'm not blaming him, but I also have this understanding of, like, he's got his own stuff and he made these choices himself. So he has to live with them that in no way, shape or form has any like, it's not because of anything I did or anything I could have done differently because when I was younger, that's what I was thinking. I was like, what could I have done differently?
Marc:How could I have prevented this? And as I now, know, where I'm at now in life, I I have that understanding of like, I get where he's coming from. Don't approve of it. Don't condone it, but I understand it. Is there room for more understanding?
Marc:I think so. But I think as I stand right now, have a much like, if I had this knowledge when I was 10, I don't think the decisions that I've ultimately made throughout my teenage years, I don't think I would have made a lot of those decisions had I had this understanding. But that's obviously looking back on it and understand and I also realized that 10 year old me would not have been able to understand that at all.
Josué:And do you mean do you mean decisions, like, in your relationship with your mom and your
Marc:dad or other More specifically with my dad. Yeah. Like Yeah. I I I hated him. I resented him.
Marc:There were times when I wanted to just cut him off completely because I knew that he wasn't quite ready to accept help or to kind of take accountability for his actions. He was just kinda going through the motions and doing what he had to do to get home sooner, but was fully intent on not changing his ways. So I harbored a lot of anger and ultimate resentment towards him for a while. And then when I was 18 and I was trying to do things on my own, And then the second time happened, that's when I kind of ultimate for me, I felt like I spent a lot of time wasted being angry with him instead of trying to understand what was happening. And so when he came back the second time, I put more energy towards that of, like, trying to understand what his mentality was or why he was doing the things that he was doing.
Marc:And so that's why when the third time happened, I was like, okay. Like, I get it. I don't agree with it. I'm not happy about it. However, like, I I understand what he's going through, what he's struggling with, And now he has to take accountability for his actions.
Marc:And this time around, it seems like that's it's definitely changed. I think he has also kinda gained a better understanding of his own internal struggles. And so I know he's doing better now. It's just that, yeah, like, growing up in those teenage years, I felt like I wasted a lot of time and energy being angry and being resentful and making a lot of decisions or or lashing out when it was simply because I I couldn't understand what was happening, and there was no way I could have understood at that age. Yeah.
Josué:Mhmm. Sometimes you gotta go through that twenty hour Assassin's Creed campaign to come out at the other end and understand it.
Marc:More like spend three hours going through a subject 16 puzzle with no internet and refusal to ask anybody to look things up for you.
Josué:Sometimes you gotta go through seven video games and free DLC to come to terms with who you are as a person in your past decisions like Kratos.
Lara:Sometimes sometimes it's a two hour movie.
Josué:Sometimes it's a two hour movie. Yep. Yep. Yep. It is.
Josué:It's infuriating that you've got to go through all that. I'll bring one last thing. Read a I was reading a book recently, the psychologist who's also like a spiritual leader. And he he said that he sometimes struggles with those two sides when working with clients. Because there's the psychotherapy part of it.
Josué:Right? Like, if it's CBT or whatever it is that you're using, there's a there's a there's a process and even like tools and, you know, ways to cope with something. But he says that from his spiritual training, he he believes that, like, sometimes you just gotta go through shit before you can actually get better. Right? Like, it's like, you haven't suffered enough.
Josué:I'm sorry for this. Like, you can't actually fix this thing that that is that is, that is affecting you because you you really haven't suffered enough to understand what's happening and be able to come out of the other side. And I thought that that was so interesting because as a therapist, you can't like, be like, nah, just keep going down that path. Just keep going down that path. Just keep keep doing that's all that horrible stuff that you're doing that's that's hurting you just a little more.
Josué:You can't do that. You gotta be like, no. No. Let's stop. Let's think about it.
Josué:Let's let's let's reframe. Let's put some coping mechanisms in. Let's get a healthy support system.
Lara:Help that perspective can also help you doing that because you're you help them put in helping coping mechanisms, but you don't have to judge them if they aren't able to implement those things at the time. Right? Like, because you know they're gonna go through what they need to go through to get to the point where they do make the changes. Mhmm.
Josué:Yeah. I I think his point is that, like, you're slowing down the inevitable. Yeah. Right? It's like, you know, this is it's like a band aid in a way.
Josué:Again, I'm not I'm not saying I'm just saying what this book was saying. Right? Because
Lara:Absolutely.
Josué:Like and and the struggles that he had about this. But but I was thinking about that, that idea of like, yeah, man, like, had to suffer through that. You had to you had to be a dick. You had to go through all that pain. You had to go through all that hurt in order to be able to to understand it.
Josué:It's like going through a bad breakup, but isn't until the at the other end that you're like, oh, these are all the things this is what my relationship was actually like. I didn't see it until then. Until it was over and I reflected on it and I felt all these different emotions, and then it was clear. Hindsight is great. But it is it is yeah.
Josué:I think I think it's just the the reality of it. I don't know of any story. I can't think of any story where the enlightened one was born that way. Right? It's like there's always trials.
Josué:There's always and it's more than just training. Right? It's like like they had to go through something to be able to for other people then to be like, that's that's the sage. That's the the wise person.
Lara:Before we were we started recording, we were talking about Avatar The Last Airbender, and it's like every Avatar, every Avatar, they are born the chosen one. They are born the Avatar, but they don't become enlightened until they've gone through all the shit.
Josué:Oh, I'm I'm watching Cora and I just saw there was just a scene where Cora goes up to somebody and is like, like, you can't talk to me that way. I'm the Avatar. Right? Like, you don't mess with me. I'm the Avatar.
Josué:And the guy goes, actually, you're a half baked avatar that is still in training and only knows three out of the four elements. You are not the avatar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:There's there's still a lot to learn to get to that point. Yeah. Yeah. Marc, did we hit the things that you wanted to to hit?
Marc:Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think I think this was a very great conversation. And I know we touched on a lot of different pieces of media that kind of go through this. And ultimately, I find that I think the big takeaway for me is that when it comes to knowledge, like learning something really presents itself as an opportunity to go on a journey of sorts.
Marc:And how like what that journey is and where that leads you ultimately depends on you. It's just because what you choose to do with the knowledge will either give you the opportunity, like will either create the understanding or it'll kind of lead you down a, you know, like a self destructive. I I don't wanna say self destructive, but it's gonna lead you to a a point where it kinda gets more confusing and it gets more distorted. It gets a little more muddied, I think. Like, there's there's many different branching paths when it comes to gaining knowledge and how you choose what path you choose to go down will ultimately kinda lead you to to a destination whether you're it's the one you're looking for or not.
Josué:There's a quote from The Matrix that that I've been thinking about as we have been we've been talking to one, like, in the first movie, right, in the first movie in the trilogy, he's like, oh, like, it's like, now you're the chosen one, man. It's like, what what what does that even mean? He doesn't even know. Mhmm. He has no awareness of even the world that he's living in.
Josué:And by the end of it, it's like, okay, I think I get this. When the second movie starts, you realize like, this guy can't sleep. He really doesn't know what he's doing. He has no idea what it means to be the one. And and he he knows that he has to make some decisions, and the Oracle tells him, you've already made the decision, whether you're aware of it or not.
Josué:You just need to understand it. And it's not until he understands why the why of things, right, like really understand it, will he be able to, like, have peace and move and move forward. And in that in the second movie, there's a lot of exposition towards the end explaining how the world works, how everything is set up. And then that sets up the third movie for, like, oh, now you have all the information you need. Now you can go into the third movie and decide, like, what are you gonna do with that information?
Josué:And everything is informed from from having that understanding from before. It's actually it's actually all of the information you have it, and he it's informing his decisions. But really right up until the end of the movie is it that he understands what he's supposed to do with all of that information. And then he's able to save the world in a way. And so I think it just just continues to yeah, that's the that's the theme here.
Josué:In this episode, or at least at least one of them. But what sticks out to me is that we I know that, like in my own therapy, my therapist is something like, but why? Like, what are you looking for? And I'm like, I'm trying to understand why I think the way I do, why I behave the way that I do. I'm always trying to understand things.
Josué:And it's like, I don't know how I I don't know if I'm if that's ultimately what's going to help me or not. That search for that understanding. I'm thinking of going back to school now to study when my mom died of last year. And I've thought lately about like, what am I looking for exactly? Like, on the surface, what I really want to do, like, I've identified a research gap, I want to look into it.
Josué:And I think that there's valuable information there for people with that condition and their families. But like, I've thought about like, is part of my motivation to understand something that I may never be able to understand? And it's something that I'm, I'm thinking a lot about lately. Like just the motivation of, or the pursuit of understanding. And if that's even how often is that actually truly possible?
Josué:Know? Mhmm. That's my closing thought. Lara, any closing thoughts?
Lara:You might know a lot of stuff, but maybe try to understand things. That's my thought.
Josué:Just try.
Marc:Have you ever
Lara:understand tried things.
Josué:Can we try to just Question
Lara:what question question what you know because you might not understand what you know.
Josué:Marc, take us home. Where? Last anything else
Marc:to add? Oh, I I feel like I already gave kind of my closing thoughts with, like, the different paths and where that could ultimately lead a person. But, yeah. No. This is a this was a wonderful conversation.
Marc:I'm really glad that we had it.
Josué:Okay. Well, listeners, let us know what what this brought up for you. If you have any examples that you think might be helpful for when a client is struggling with not understanding something or even after that experience of like, oh, now I get it. And I didn't get it before. And all the feelings that come with that, which can include feeling guilty about what you did before.
Josué:Also being kind to yourself and forgiving yourself for not knowing, not understanding before because how could you? And anything else related to that, let us know in the community spaces, you can find in the show notes, or you can visit geektherapy.org for more geek therapy. Remember to geek out and do good. I'll be back next week. Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter visit geektherapy.org.
