Stuck in the Matrix (Again)
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona, and joining me today is Link Keller.
Link:Hello. And Lara Taylor.
Josué:Hey. What's up, y'all? I'm how's your twenty twenty four going?
Link:Bad.
Josué:Good. Good. Good.
Link:How dare you?
Lara:Mine mine's pretty mid. It's okay.
Josué:Mid? Mid? Yeah. Have you all seen that meme about, how the same two teams were in the Super Bowl in 2020 as this year and also the same two presidential candidates in 2020 as in 2024?
Lara:There is a meme talking about the the glitch in the matrix for 2020 and 2024, and there's a lot more than just those specific things.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, how do we how do we how do we get here again?
Josué:You know? Like, we're in the
Lara:same If I had to pick any year to relive, it would not be 2020.
Josué:And yet here we are. And here we are.
Lara:Here we are.
Josué:We'll revisit that statement of yours just now a few times throughout this episode. So this week, was watching anime as I usually do. And I'm sitting down and there was I was like, oh, what should I watch on on the next episode of? Trigun or Roni Kenshin? Now you might be thinking, that's why you're revisiting these classics from Toonami in the early two thousands or late nineties.
Josué:What are what are you doing? I'm like, no. These are brand new shows. They came out in 2023. And I'm just happy to be watching them now.
Josué:There's new episodes, I think Roni Kenshin coming out now. And like, I just sat back for a second. Was like, I've I've I've been here before. And I'm I'm I'm here again. And it made me think about my my own life, of course, and and how we end up.
Josué:And I really want your take on this, Lara, and how and how you deal with this with clients. But it's like reverting back to old behaviors, and falling back into something that you I thought I was past it. I thought I had done better. I thought I had improved. But my life was going one way.
Josué:And then when you look back, you're like, Oh, wait a minute. How am I here again? Right? It's like, it's not just, it's not just the either the hardship or the difficulty or the struggle that you're going with. But there's this added meta feeling to it of also why am I here again?
Josué:Like, thought I had figured this out. I thought I was past it. And yet I'm here again. 2024 is feeling that way. And I'm feeling that way right now.
Josué:And that's that's what today's topic is. Like, how can we what what kind of stories kinda help us to think about this in particular ways and maybe some that have helped us think about this in the past? Salam, gonna throw it to you first in in the context of how often do you have clients come to you with this kind of framing?
Lara:It's interesting because I feel as you were speaking, I heard I had this feeling of deja vu. Like, we had talked about something similar very recently, like, the last few months.
Josué:On the podcast?
Lara:Yeah. Yeah. It's possible. Maybe not the exact topic, but like redoing things and like having that because I remember saying that I talked to my clients about like, it is normal for things to come up again. It is normal for you to fall back into old habits and or forget the new ones that you've created.
Lara:And I think it was framed the last time we talked about it was framed more in the like forgetting the new habits that have been helpful. But what do we do when we forget those new habits? We fall back into the old patterns and the old pathways that were our brain decided this is the way we go instead of fighting to go the other way.
Josué:So not only is 2020, like, being repeated in 2024. Apparently, I'm repeating a podcast topic with the same problem from, like, just months ago.
Lara:Mhmm. Maybe.
Josué:Very appropriate.
Lara:Maybe. It's very meta. Very meta. Yeah. But I think one of the things I talk about in this situation is like, we are not And I've said this before many times on this show, I think.
Lara:I'm still having deja vu. The idea that we are different than we were the first time we went through the thing. Right? We have learned things. We just have to be reminded to do those things.
Lara:I've had clients who came to me. I was like their second or third therapist, they sometimes they've been in therapy before with another therapist and worked heavily on their trauma, doing EMDR or cognitive processing or whatever brain spotting, whatever it is, they worked heavily on their trauma. And they wanna work with me on something else. And cool. We're gonna work on something else that's come up since you feel like you've packed that trauma up in a nice little box and bow.
Lara:And then they realize, like, a few months in, oh, it's the trauma. I never really got rid of it because you're never really gonna get rid of it. You can deal with it differently, but, yeah, the trauma is still the thing coming back to you. And what are the things that you've learned to help you get through that? What are the things our brains like routine.
Lara:Our brains like repetition, some of us. ADHD likes new things. But there's this, like, we go our brains go with the path of least resistance most of the time, and we've learned these patterns over decades. And it's not gonna be a quick, like, couple months, six month fix to get it, like, into a different pattern. We're going to fall back into other habits.
Lara:And as I have said on this podcast many times before, if you can do it once, can do it again. If you can get there once, you can get there again. Done. Podcast over.
Josué:I remember I remember the what what sparked the last conversation was that I was playing Tears of the Kingdom, and I wasn't using any of the new abilities. Mhmm. I kept using the old ones from Yeah. Right? So was like, I learned so there was it was more about
Lara:It's a it's a different it's a similar topic, but a different one. Yeah.
Josué:It may very well be the same exact topic. But let me let me let me tell you how I'm framing it, how it's being framed slightly differently. There, it was like, oh, wait a minute. I just learned these skills in therapy, or right at work or whatever.
Lara:Tears of the Kingdom.
Josué:Yeah. And it's like, Oh, but I keep, I keep falling back to the same thing. Right? Like, I don't know, at work, we've got this new software that does things really well. It's like, Oh, but I really like Excel.
Josué:So I'm just gonna keep using Excel. Like, no, we have something that works way better than that. And, know, you kind of fall back into those old behaviors. But I'm thinking about today, which again, may be exactly the same. But, but the perspective is more situational.
Lara:Right?
Josué:Right? Like, how do you end up? And I mean, this, I don't think we touched this on the last episode. I barely remember the last episode. You seem to remember better than I do.
Josué:So just just feel free to
Lara:As I mentioned, I think last week or the week before, my memory might be just as much garbage as anyone else's any other human's memory, but I do remember a lot of fucking things.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. The episode wasn't too too long ago, I don't think. So the kingdom came out, like, in May. So in May, but it wasn't it wasn't that far back.
Josué:So like some people have a relationship, right? And then they fall they leave that relationship. Sometimes Sometimes you go back to the same relationship. Right? And you're like, oh, I forgot, like, all of the same.
Josué:Like, why did I forget about all the bad stuff? And now they're all happening again. Like, did I think something was gonna be different? But I think it has a lot to do with kind of that lack of self awareness, right, where you're like, oh, even if you believe something is going to be different, you kind of reduce the intensity of or the severity of the things that were negative before, you know, like in your in your memory, as a way to move forward, and then you you end up in the same situation. Some people end up with a different partner, and still end up in the same
Lara:situation. And have the same problem.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or, like, you make a professional decision. I know that, like, my housing situation is currently one where I'm I'm in a situation where I did not expect to be here again, because I had vowed that I would never do this again.
Josué:And now I'm in the same exact situation that I don't want to be, and I didn't want to be before. And it's just such a weird feeling to be to be there, like, feeling like you solve something like you had that you had gotten past it. And I I was trying to think of different stories that kind of play with those ideas in different ways. But ultimately, this is a a reflection for this kind of situation where, like, I know, like, so many clients have, you know, what would come to me and it's like, what you and I are 40 now. You know?
Josué:How many we don't have to lay them out here, but, like, how many things that we don't like, we we're still in the same situation, you know, and and and we're we're continuing them or we fall back into them. I yeah. Link, any thoughts on on this? And your reflections before we go into media examples?
Link:No, I I have I have a media example. I didn't think that I did, but I do.
Josué:Okay. You don't have to self reflect. It's fine. Go ahead. Just just give
Link:me a The reflection is just I feel bad. I just feel bad.
Josué:About?
Link:Oh. For the past five years, past four year five years, six years, and and Eight years? It it's just it's just a lot. It's yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Okay. Hit hit us with a community example. That's fine.
Link:It's it's it's not a good conversation. It's just me fee I feel bad, and I don't wanna cry about it. Like, oh, I feel it. My media example, I just recently finished watching the sixth season of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, stone ocean featuring Jolene Cujo, our our first woman Jojo, which is very exciting. But one of the spoilers.
Link:One of the main arcs of that season, The main antagonist is, attempting to what he calls achieve heaven, which ends up being creating a perfect time loop where everything is predetermined because that's the only way that humans can be happy according to this character is if you know exactly what is going to happen to you always. And then the Jolene and the Joe Bros working to defeat this guy and stop that from happening and and breaking the cycle and and all sorts of stuff like that, time loop stuff. I mean, I definitely like that. That's sort of what it comes down to is, like, this kind of media. If it if it ends with ultimately being hopeful about being able to break these cycles that we are stuck in, that we know are harming us, that we are suffering within and underneath.
Link:And I definitely need media that's like, there's still hope. With the power of friendship and some really, really wacky magical powers and super sexy outfits, we can we can bust out of this dark whirlpool of hell that we're trapped inside of.
Josué:Oh, just a quick side question. What year does does does that does season six take take place?
Link:Stone Ocean takes place in the 90s in
Josué:the 90s, okay. Florida
Link:prison.
Josué:Amazing. Amazing.
Link:It really is. I love Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.
Josué:Alright, so so the antagonist is saying that for everyone to be happy, they
Link:is need achieved through fully committing to fate.
Josué:Gotcha. So like
Link:That there is no free will. There are no choices. Things happen because they they happened before and they will always happen that way.
Josué:And so his position is in in another word in other words, it's that it is free will that causes suffering.
Link:That is certainly the stance of Fauci Okay. Is
Josué:Okay. So he wants just like a determinist, an entirely determinist reality. And once people how is he making that a reality? Like, wouldn't he just have to convince people that that's true?
Link:You've you've asked an extremely hilarious question.
Josué:We don't have to get get into it. Mean
Link:It's it's Jojo's bizarre adventure, and there's heavy, emphasis on the bizarre part. Mhmm. The shortest way I can describe this is, father Pucci makes this happen by harnessing the power of Dio's bone and a stand baby plant creature.
Josué:I regret asking this question.
Link:Yeah, it doesn't. It's insanity. In the in the best way, it truly is like, just what is going on? But having a great time trying to figure it out. But yeah, basically magic magic reasons is he combines sets of powers to create a closed time loop.
Josué:It's, it's funny. So I'm reading a book right now called determined. And it's a case against free will. It's a nonfiction book that uses psychology and neuroscience research to and a lot of philosophy and just but there's a lot of research kind of making the point that the entire world is deterministic and that free will doesn't really exist. It is not a comforting thought to me at all reading that book.
Josué:But I've been but I've been very curious. Apparently, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure season six did not follow that is is not following what that book is saying. There's no much in the deal books that
Lara:book is saying.
Josué:Know, I following?
Lara:Over and over and over again.
Josué:So so so it's funny the book. The book just says that you that we have less free will. I mean, it hasn't convinced me yet that we it's just like determinism, right? It's like everything that happens now is is a cause of something before it. Or is it strongly influenced by something that came before?
Josué:That it be genetics or your upbringing or your environment or what you ate yesterday, like there's just so many different things. It's it's kinda depressing as well. But okay. Okay. Jojo and the time loop and no free will will make people feel better.
Josué:People will be happy if they just know what's going to happen. Interesting. Also depressing, potentially, depending on on how we're looking at it.
Lara:So you picked a depressing topic.
Josué:No. No. No. No. Like Link said, we're gonna we're gonna find hopeful examples.
Josué:I I
Link:don't know that it's the topic. I think it's us.
Josué:It might be it might be us. It might be
Link:I don't think it's the conversation. I think it's the conversation havers.
Josué:So it's funny, I was looking up different examples as well before. And as I was reading a few examples, like, oh, wait a minute, the matrix for actually touches on this a little bit. Have either of you watched the fourth matrix?
Link:Yes. I have not.
Josué:So so these movies are not action movies. They are philosophy movies.
Link:Oh, absolutely.
Josué:This is why. Alright. So so you gotta know that going in. So this movie in particular, like, after you spend the first three movies, like, the first movie, they break out of The Matrix. And then in the second and third movie, they're trying to break out everybody else out of The Matrix, and it's complicated.
Josué:And in the first Matrix, there's this there's a scene. There's a character named Cypher, and he's trying to make a deal to get reinserted into the Matrix. And he he he tells agent Smith, ignorance is bliss. Right? Like, I don't wanna remember that there's a real world.
Josué:I want to go back and just be I want to be asleep again. I don't want to be aware of what is real, of what's out there. And so they're fighting so much for that in the first three movies. And in the fourth movie, Neo and Strider find themselves again inside the matrix. Again, like reinserted.
Josué:But then they're being manipulated in many different ways. One, there's a character named the analyst that is giving them pills to, like, numb them from remembering the past. And then he's also created like, it's it's it's pretty fucked up. Like, Trinity has a husband and children, and those things are being used. They're not real.
Josué:Reality can be discussed. Right? But it's like, would do they make it so that it's harder for them to want to break out of the same cycle that they were in before. And this is by design. Like, the matrix is actively working against them.
Josué:The idea being that if they and and the theme of the entire movie is if we provide pleasure and comfort to the people, they will not wake up. Right? Which is a lot of discussion about a whole bunch of other things that we could talk about in our country and society. And if Link felt felt better, there'd be there'd be a rant in a soapbox. But Sure.
Link:I just we're gonna talk about bread and circuses. I'm so excited.
Josué:And and so, like, I think that goes to what you said earlier, Lara, in a way you said, like, we we go back to what's comfortable and familiar. And and I don't is that it? Like, I have I'm having issues with that as well now. It's like, am I really falling back into things that are just comfortable? Like, I feel like I'm like, I've woken up.
Josué:I feel like I'm like I'm in in the Matrix movies. Right? And in the fourth one, they're like, they feel that something is not right. They're not sure. Like, they can see glitches.
Josué:They can see that things aren't okay, and they're not feeling okay. But there's enough comfort to kind of stay in there and not push forward enough. Like, it takes a a there's a there's a catalyst. There's somebody who comes in and kinda shakes them up and shows them what their situation is to be able to really move out of there. And I feel like I'm in that stage right now where I've been I have been shaken.
Josué:And now I am like, oh, I can't stay in the situation that I'm in because it's not it's not great. And I'm I think I'm at the stage also where I see how I got back here, and I'm struggling to get out of it. I I think I'm I think I'm on my way out, but it's it's the the reflection of all of that, of having fallen in again. I think when I when I came you know, when I suggested this topic, I did not think of the matrix. But for right now, it seems to be the one that is the most like, that resonates the most with me right now.
Lara:I like that as
Link:a metaphor because it does allow space for, like, the internalized aspects of the ways in which we fall back into prior behaviors like we've been talking about, but it also really emphasizes the way at which we are pushed by the systems that we are enmeshed with. It is not a moral personal failing every time. It is extremely multifaceted, complicated systems are intentionally pushing us in this direction And having to wake up and fight our way out of it are all separate actions happening concurrently.
Josué:You you said not a moral or personal failing every time. Do you think that sometimes it's a moral or personal failing?
Link:It can be. I mean, I I don't think it exists in a vacuum. I don't I don't I think that's an extremely reductive way of thinking about things. But if there is a situation in which taking full ownership over something that happened to you is beneficial to figuring out what the fuck's going on, like, yeah, fucking, you can claim it all as your own. I'm not going to but you could.
Josué:Interesting. What are your thoughts on that, Lara? My
Lara:thoughts on on which piece of it, Jose? There was so much that was in said.
Josué:On the on the personal and moral failings piece.
Lara:It's interesting. When I'm talking with my clients, I don't I do hedge things, but usually, it is a statement like, it's not a personal or moral failing unless you don't want to do something about it. Like, you don't feel remorse, guilt. Like, the guilt drives you. Like, I don't want people to feel unhealthy amounts of guilt.
Lara:But like, guilt is there for a reason. It's emotion we have for a reason, wanting to do something more to change the situation, even if they aren't in a place where they can. And that's okay if you can't change something right then. It's I don't I don't use always, never when I'm talking with clients, because I don't want them to, like, take my words as gospel, and then, like,
Link:something happens. Right. That's why I phrased it that way. It was the same reason as I don't wanna say always and never.
Lara:And at the same time, the majority of the time, it is not a moral or or personal failing to fall back on old habits, to do the same thing over again, to it just it just is. We are creatures of habit. I think I said that at least three times today. We are creatures of habit and it is okay to fall back into old patterns. And if you have gotten out of there before, can get out of there again.
Lara:And maybe we take a look at why we ended up there again. So
Josué:I've been studying a form of psychotherapy called internal family systems. Are you familiar with it?
Lara:It's one of modalities the right now.
Josué:Yeah. And so the main theory behind it is a theory of multi personality. Basically, that we are not a uni a unimind, we're a polymind. I think I'm I'm not using the right words. I'm I'm getting close to his words.
Josué:But we are that
Lara:Don't take any trainings on internal family systems from post Wake Cardona.
Josué:No. No. No. I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet.
Josué:I'm not there yet. It's my memory scarf. But the idea is that your what what what you just called or what we're calling a moral or personal failing, IFS just sees it as a part of you.
Lara:Right?
Josué:That for very specific reasons, fell back to those behaviors or engaged in that behavior. And there's something about that that's like, it's not all of you. There's a part of you, right? Like, this is why in this conversation, right? Like, can have we're talking about the different perspectives of like, I'm observing myself being in this situation.
Josué:I I remember being in another situation. I'm questioning why I did these things. But it's like yeah, because you a part of you doesn't want to be in that situation. Maybe a part of you does like the comfort or where it's at. Maybe there's a part of you that wants to move forward, but there's a part of you that doesn't want to go through the trouble of having to to put in the work.
Josué:Right? Or there's a part of you that's like making you blind to certain possibilities, because you don't want to change. Right? It's like that that kind of thing. I've been I've been enjoying studying IFS from that perspective and seeing different case studies, where, like, even when I when I started as a therapist, I always used to, like, I would just do a pie chart and be like, no, like, like, there's only a part of you like, like, I don't know, like 20% of you, you know, is this, but it's not all of you like, there's different, you have different desires, different emotions, and sometimes they can be at odds with each other.
Josué:So
Lara:yeah, parts work is, is really helpful and thinking about I mean, narrative therapy and things like that aren't the same, but you take things and externalize things and you can externalize your depression or anxiety or whatever. But in this situation, like plenty of times when people are talking about change or wanting to do something differently, there's this like ambivalence about it. And it's like, well, part of you wants to do this thing and part of you doesn't want to do this thing. Recently, I talked with a young client who told me I am in a situation that is my worst nightmare right now because of how I view the world and how what is important to me and my values. And I did a thing and it put me in this situation.
Lara:And we talked about, well, part of you wants what that view is, and it's probably a big part of you, this worldview and wants these things to happen and these are your values and your beliefs. And this smaller part of you really wanted to do that thing because of whatever it was that was lying underneath. What was it that you were going to gain from that? And they were able to name so many things as to why they did the thing they did. They were, And by the end of that session, able to kind of stop beating themselves up over it.
Lara:Who knows what's gonna happen when going back into the situation? But having that idea that there are parts of you that you can still And then we get back into another theory, dialectical behavioral therapy. You can want two things that seem the opposite at the same time. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah.
Josué:I mean, one thing I can agree on is that the, like, beating yourself up about it is not helpful.
Lara:It's not.
Josué:That part isn't gonna get you there. In the movies, that that that part is usually only a scene or two. Mhmm. Once you get past
Lara:that one, you start And in life, it keeps going and going
Josué:and going. Stuck on that one a lot. Mhmm. A lot.
Lara:It's like a it's like a whole five season arc.
Josué:Yeah. I know. I know. So I I feel like a big part of the that process. Right?
Josué:It's like you've you've first, you need to find yourself. I'm gonna give one version of this. Right? But and and you guys tell me, like, if there are alternate kind of versions of this, but it seems like the character finds themselves in No, the character is in a situation in which they were before. Then they realize that they're in a situation that they don't they don't like.
Josué:Right? Like there's this awareness that starts coming up. That's like that awakening, you start seeing things that are that are odd. Then after that is when you can really start, like, understanding what's happening. And I think the understanding part part of it is who is the process.
Josué:Right? So you're aware, and then once you're in it, you start understanding kind of what what's what's happening. And I think that part is like, you're beating yourself up, and then realizing that, like, that's not helpful. Right? Some of the stuff that you said of like, hey, we 're here, maybe we can get out of it again.
Josué:We're remembering where we were before. We're seeing like, we were talking about the different factors that keep us here or got us here. All of those things are coming together. And then comes the breaking out of it or the the and usually, like, that can be testing different ways to do it, but eventually, hopefully, breaking breaking out.
Lara:That reminds me of the well, Groundhog Day, but also the supernatural episode where Sam keeps having to deal with Dean dying over and over. And or is it the other way around? Might be the other way around. I don't remember. It's been a long
Josué:time since I watched it,
Lara:but like literally like hundreds of times of dying and trying different things to get it to stop. And in this time loop,
Josué:so that so that that trope, I think could be helpful in some examples. So what so how does that one work? What happens in that episode?
Lara:This has been like I said, it's been so long, but, like, no matter what the whichever brother it is, that's the one that's living. And I wrote a book chapter on this too. You did. But the one that lives is repeatedly trying to he knows what's gonna happen. The other one dies.
Lara:And as soon as that the brother dies, wakes up, the clock starts again. Same alarm, same music, everything over and over and over and over again, and just tries so many different things. I can't remember exactly what the final thing was that breaks him out of it, but it's not like the standard, like, I'm gonna keep you from stepping under that thing, or I'm gonna keep you from walking into the street.
Josué:Is it doing nothing? Might be. It sounds like
Lara:It might be. It might be. It has been it has been probably a decade since I watched this.
Josué:Whenever anybody tells me, have you tried doing nothing? It infuriates me makes me so mad. Bothers me. Not that that's isn't the answer sometimes. Sometimes that may actually be the way out and what'll what'll help you out.
Josué:But But yeah, that one. That answer bothers me a lot. Yeah. Are you looking for the for the chapter you want to see? I can't.
Josué:You're just looking for a synopsis? See how it ends?
Lara:Yeah. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Josué:Well, I'll give you I'll give you a different example. I mean, but that trope is a bit is is around in a lot. Right? Like, obviously, the the Groundhog
Lara:Day Yeah. Mhmm. It happens in there's a at least one Star Trek episode that does that. Mhmm.
Josué:At least one in each show of Star Trek in the Star Trek show.
Lara:Sam watches Dean Mhmm. Die over and over again. Uh-huh. Okay. I'm gonna keep going till Yeah.
Lara:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll figure it out. Let me see.
Josué:Skip to the end. I
Lara:gotta skip to the end of the synopsis.
Josué:Right to the end.
Lara:It's very long.
Josué:Okay.
Lara:Wait. It skipped halfway back up the page.
Josué:What does it do? Come on. Oh. Oh.
Lara:Sam is willing to tell Bobby that he's willing to kill an innocent person. Okay. Okay. So he's the person he kills is not the is not actually that person. It's the it's the trickster keeping him that's got him in the time loop.
Lara:So he has to be willing to kill somebody, an innocent person, for for his brother to come out of this time loop.
Josué:And does he? Yeah. He kills an innocent person? Does he kill the trickster?
Lara:He kills the trickster who was posing as the innocent person. Okay. So so so Wait. No. No.
Lara:No. Okay. Sam is going to kill an innocent person. Bobby, his father figure, gets out a knife, tells him to kill him instead. So instead of killing an innocent person, he offers up himself that this is the trickster posing as the father figure, and he kill he offers himself up.
Lara:So then Sam kills his father figure, who he thinks is his father figure, to save Dean. Wild. That we can't learn too many lessons from that piece.
Josué:I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna work it in. I'm gonna work it in. There's two there's two versions here, I think. Possible takeaways. Link, you were in the bathroom.
Josué:You didn't miss anything. We were just
Lara:We were googling the
Josué:Supernatural chapter. Supernatural. We figured it out. We figured it out. So here here's my here's my the potential two situations that you might resonate with.
Josué:One is that him having to kill an innocent or somebody that he cares about. I think we can see that as sacrifice, right? Like, sometimes you have to sacrifice something that you really care about to be able to move forward or get out of a sex situation. That I think is very relatable, right? Like, you don't want to, you feel like you're going to hurt your parents feelings, or you don't want to leave your friends behind.
Josué:Or, again, speaking of a relationship, right? Like, taking this new opportunity means you're gonna have to break up with someone that that you love and you've been with for a long time. Like, are you willing to make that huge sacrifice to get out of the of being stuck in the cycle that you're in? That's one. The other take from that is just killing the cause of of of your suffering.
Link:Of your suffering.
Lara:And in this case, it was not even knowing that it was the cause of your suffering. But And ultimately, that's
Josué:what that's what did it. But I mean, I mean, I think metaphorically, that works regardless. Yeah. Because, like, we've talked about like Albert Ellis, right? Like like, REBT.
Josué:I love REBT because Albert Ellis was very frank. Right? So he didn't don't think he had many friends. Definitely didn't have
Lara:a lot of I saw that the videos they show in grad school. Mm-mm. He didn't Doesn't
Josué:mean that he's wrong. Right? Like No. If we're stuck, ultimately, I mean, it's our fault. Right?
Josué:Like, that's the hardest part to accept. It's like we're still making decisions that put it like, again, all of those examples. Right? It's like, well, you know, I can't leave the relationship that I am in or, like, I can't do that to my parents. Like, no, no, can.
Josué:You absolutely can, but you feel like you can't. Right? Like, ultimately, you're still making a decision that's keeping you there. I can't leave this job. You could.
Josué:Your life might suck if you leave this job. Your life is gonna get so much harder. You may not know how you're gonna, you know, feed your kids, take care of your parents, whatever it is, pay the mortgage. But you could, that's still an option. Right?
Josué:It's a hard option, but it's still there. So there's there's that sacrifice piece, which I think is illustrated well in in in that in that example. I think that's where I was going with it. I I may have been going with another way, but I think I think I got to it. Oh, yeah.
Josué:No. No. That just that it's it's you. Right? Like so even just like that that idea of, like, oh, it was the trickster that was causing the problem, so you had to eliminate the trickster.
Josué:Like, what what is it that you're doing that is causing that? Right? And sometimes it is just like the belief that if I make this decision or I make this change, the world is gonna end or everything is gonna be terrible or or just the belief that that's an impossible option, but it but it's not. Right? And so ultimately, it's you that is stopping yourself.
Josué:That's, like, the hardest thing to to acknowledge in in, you know, in in those cases where I mean, I think that's in most cases. Anybody wanna argue with me on that one? Just not every case, but in most cases.
Link:I don't necessarily wanna argue against it. But I do think that there are instances in which it is more difficult to accept the things that aren't in your control. Like, it can absolutely be very difficult for you to address the ways in which you are holding yourself in a position that you're uncomfortable with. But there's also power in that I am choosing to do that. And so getting people to be like, actually, there are instances in which you you don't have any power at all in real decision making here and getting people to internalize that aspect can be more difficult than the flip side of, like, it's it is in my control, I do have power.
Link:Again, not arguing. I I'm a I'm yes and ing. Yeah.
Josué:So for for what what would be an example of something that's out of your control that's out of somebody's control?
Link:Things like if you have a disability and you know that you need accommodations for a disability and you have the power in the situation to request accommodations, but there are still instances in which those accommodations will not be given to you. That it has nothing to do with whether or not you were proactive enough to ask for them or not.
Lara:You just get denied. Yeah.
Link:Yeah. And things like that where it's like, yes, you can be like, well, I'm unhappy with this situation I'm having at work. And it's like, well, the situation you're having is because you didn't request that accommodation that you need. And it's like, well, I do have power here where I could request the accommodation, but I don't have power over if that accommodation actually happens.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Those are the that's the type of example that came to my mind as well. This is where like Albert Ellis and even Viktor Frankl and a whole bunch of others, gets I think this is where it gets like, they get the most resistance from it, which is like, so you didn't get accommodations. Right?
Josué:So what? Right? It's like, how are you how are you suffering because of it? Right? And then it goes all the way to fucking Victor Franklin.
Josué:I'll be like, well, I was in a concentration camp. And, you know, and and I chose to not be miserable about it. And so, you know, taking that, like, he he literally through his lived experience takes you to that extreme of like, it doesn't matter how bad it is, you can still make it for yourself so that you're not suffering from it. Right? Which I think which I think is is separate from, like a like a getting accommodations is you're absolutely right.
Josué:Like, that's a that's one thing where, like, it's out of your control whether or not they respond yes or no. And then separately, it's like caught in this this misery loop, right, or this situation where you find yourself again and again. Can you hear me okay, Link? Sound good? Okay.
Josué:Okay. Well, Mark is gonna have a fun time editing this one.
Lara:A hell of a time.
Josué:Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay. Where's I gonna go with this?
Josué:It's pretty on the professional. So okay. So now how about what examples see, what like, other examples you have of breaking out of the loop that feel helpful or at least motivational?
Lara:I know there are so many episodes, many examples of a time loop or some kind of loop and breaking out of it, and it feels good. And I cannot remember a single one. Like I said, there's a Star Trek one.
Josué:I'm sure. Have to be a time loop.
Link:When when you brought up the the super I I've I'm not a supernatural watcher. I've only seen, like, probably two combined episodes, but there is a similar episode in Buffy. They do the the Groundhog's Day episode in Buffy. I don't remember that one being particularly uplifting in the way that it resolved. I really think it was just Anya decided to the antagonist decided to stop antagonizing, basically.
Link:Yeah. It's like, okay. You've suffered enough, I guess.
Josué:I do get not
Link:an uplifting moral of the story.
Lara:You brought up Buffy. I think of it like Buffy overall, it feels like there is not the same time loop, but there's this cycle of Slayer fights vampires, fights monsters, Slayer dies. Slayer fights vampires, monsters, Slayer dies. And it keeps going. And Buffy's able to break that twice.
Lara:Right? She dies. She comes back. There's two slayers now. And instead of working alone
Link:Which honestly, I'm I'm never gonna recover from once they figured that out. Why didn't they commit to the bit and make thirty, forty, 50 slayers? They just keep doing it.
Josué:They did.
Lara:But they did. And that is season seven.
Link:They made us wait so long. I know. That could have been season two.
Lara:I'm but they figured out the they made the logic that it the path follows Kendra and then Faith, so then when Faith dies and but whatever. There's that. There's slayers traditionally work on their own. She broke that and had her Scooby gang and was able to lean on other people and supports. And then the final season where she's like, I'm giving up this power to everyone who could ever be a Slayer.
Lara:And breaking that cycle and beating the big bad.
Josué:I think there's a, like, a darker take on that as well, which is that she was like, Buffy was happy when she was dead. She was happier when she was dead than when she was alive. And she
Lara:She's at peace.
Josué:She confronts her friends, right? We're like, you you literally ripped me out of heaven. And then after that, and I don't know how much this is addressed, but I always the the way I remember it is that she basically decides she chooses. Right? Because I think this has a lot to do with, you know, ultimately, choice.
Josué:Like, she chose to not be at peace and be happy for the sake of her friends and family and possibly even the world. Right? Because were she dead, she would be happier. But I think maybe she just didn't want that. She changed her mind at some point.
Josué:And therefore, the trap that she was in, like, the the situation that she was
Lara:in Somewhere in the after that after the season she comes back, there's there is a shift. Right.
Link:It's the musical episode, you guys. Come on.
Josué:Well, not in the musical episode.
Lara:And then the episode after, Tabula Rasa is, like, my favorite episode where everybody just doesn't know who each other are and, like, can't remember anything. That's, like,
Link:the big shift, right, is is Buffy finally confronts them about what had actually happened to her. That was the action that Buffy had control over was telling the truth. Did not have control over coming back to life. That was something that was done to her. But then being able to tell the truth about it and then being able to, for herself, choose, okay.
Link:I'm fucking mad and annoyed that you guys did this to me, but I am choosing to live. I am choosing to be the slayer. And Does that happen in
Josué:the also in the does that also
Link:happen in the musical episode? In the musical episode, the big emotional moment is Spike singing to Buffy about how, like, you you're alive. Like, it you have to you have to just keep doing it. That's what being alive is. I know because I'm undead.
Link:And Buffy being like Yeah. Damn. I hate when you're right. Really fucking annoying.
Josué:But Mhmm. That yeah. Then so, like, I remember when she's like, you know, you pulled me out of heaven and I fucking sucked. Y'all are pretty selfish.
Lara:I was happy. Right? Because every they all thought she was in hell and they were saving her from hell and burning in hell. There's that, like, the song about I was in heaven. I know.
Lara:She's crying. Yeah.
Josué:Mhmm. Yeah. I don't remember any like, I'm just assuming that she chose. Obviously, chose to stay. It's like, was a choice that she had to make.
Lara:Had to well, she would have had to make the choice to let something kill her. Right? Yeah.
Josué:I mean, yeah, die in whatever way, right, to to go back to to that piece
Link:that she was trying revisiting of the between season two and season three when Buffy kills Angel, and that is extremely traumatic for her. And she just leaves town and pretends to be somebody else and works at a diner. And it's this whole plot about how she's hiding from it. And when she accepts herself is when she's like, okay, that's now I can keep moving forward and living and being myself and everything. So I think I think that was a fun character cycle moment.
Link:Yeah. Buffy, man. Okay. I thought of another example.
Josué:Alright.
Link:Good. In a little indie game called Baldur's Gate three. Are are many themes of breaking cycles of abuse. But I think in in this instance, Astarian's story, I think, is is the closest connection there in spoilers. The the bits of lore that you pick up about Cazador, Astarian's vampire lord master, and when he became a vampire and the actions that he took and then the way that he treated his vampire spawn, including Astarian, And the way that Astarian treats you, the player character, in the beginning and the choices that you make change over time allow Astarian to break that cycle in a really powerful moving way.
Link:But that that same thing is getting to see this sort of both sides of the ways in which your own actions can trap you in a cycle and also the ways in which things outside of your control are put upon you and how you have to react to that. Mhmm.
Josué:Yeah. What what kind of actions do you need to take in the game for Asterion to break out, To break the cycle?
Link:A a lot of, like, little things can add up to it, but one of one of the main ones is in act two, you meet a drow character who is like, I'm really into vampires. I want that vampire to bite me. And Astarian's like, no. Thank you. And you, the player, you can either be like, he said no, or you can be like, wow.
Link:Like, I thought that that was your bag. Like, don't you don't you wanna like, we're gonna get a potion, a cool potion for this. Like, don't you wanna help out? And so that's, like, the the player's choice there. But afterwards, the the outcome that in that is Astarian, if if you make him bite her, he gets really upset with you.
Link:And he's like, I didn't know how to say no before, but I do now. And he's very displeased. But if you say, like, he said, no, we're not doing that. Drop it. You get a cutscene with him later where he's like, I if you if you said to do it, would have done it because I'm used I'm used to just using my body in that way and and not having control over myself.
Link:And you giving me that control is scary and new, and I'm gonna have to spend a whole act really pondering about it. And then he gets, you know, Dafaustian choice of, you know, selling your soul for power and safety. And if you have been supportive of Astarian being, you know, self sufficient and self reliant and respecting that he is allowed to say no and that that's okay, He chooses to say no to that deal and is a happier person and he breaks he breaks this the the vampire cycle of torture and oppression, subjugation. It's really beautiful. I fucking love this video game.
Lara:Shadowheart has a similar a similar one too where she breaks out from these people that, like, kidnapped her as a child and brainwashed her.
Link:It is very much the the main theme of Baldur's Gate three is talking about cycles of of violence and abuse and how that how that happens and how people break out of it or perpetuate it or never see it.
Josué:Yeah. Mhmm. And the influence of your surroundings and your
Link:Yes. Yes. Important work as well.
Lara:Yeah. I know.
Link:Got distracted. But that is that is one of the things I really like about Astarian story is it does make it really clear that the this is this positive outcome is not something that could have happened without the support of other people caring about Astarian and showing him that he is worthy of being cared about and capable of being cared about. So reflect that into your own life how you need to, I guess. Mhmm.
Josué:We haven't talked about this, but Astairean killed me in my playthrough. We can talk about that later. That'd be
Lara:my main character.
Josué:And I'm still at the beginning. See how that plays out.
Lara:I just got the Baldur's Gate.
Josué:Yeah. I'm I'm still in act one. So one one other example that I thought was that I it falls into to what you're saying here. I hadn't thought about it before, but was is the Truman Show.
Link:Yes. So Absolutely.
Josué:And and this goes to the idea of, like, the people your support network and the people around you. Right? Like, he he was born into the situation. Everybody around him knows that they're keeping him captive. Right?
Josué:And once he starts noticing, they they basically start gaslighting him also. Right? And then and then they keep reinforcing it. And he realizes, like, he starts testing it, and eventually, he breaks out. One thing I love about that movie is that you know, you you have no idea what happens to him afterwards.
Josué:Right? But you know that he makes it out. Hopefully, he doesn't just like walk right back in. That would would be terrible. Depending on what world he's walking out and out to.
Josué:But but that's a that's an example of like, you're you're stuck in this. And and and in his case, he doesn't I don't remember. Is there anyone who starts supporting him and, like, helps him escape? There's gotta be somebody.
Link:It's probably been twenty years since I saw that movie. I haven't seen
Josué:that movie in twenty years either. But I can I can remember, like, even his mom, right, was like, no? What are you talking about? And then she, like, repositions the the the can of soda so the the camera can get
Link:the brand. Think that leads right back into the meta like, the systems metaphor. Right? It's like, there there are things that you individually have control over, but there are so many things outside of your control that are just around you all the time that you can't do anything about. And it can be really distressing once you start noticing it.
Josué:Then and then I know. And then and that's what like, it gets harder and harder, but ultimately, you have to like, in in the example of Truman, he's like, this isn't real. Right? Like, I I can I can play along or I can try to break out of this out of this strange jail that I'm in that I I can't unsee?
Lara:Mhmm. I read That remind that reminds me of Barbie. Like, the Barbie movie. How every day she's doing the same thing. They all wake up.
Lara:They
Josué:all Oh, yeah. Of course.
Lara:They float down to the ground, and they have their little song and their dance party. They have girls night every night, and it's the same thing all day, every day. And then she has this this moment of, like, this this is different. Yeah. This is weird.
Lara:And then she goes to our world and sees like, oh, wow. Things are very different. Yeah. And then breaks the the Barbie world into something that could be better for all Barbies and Kens. So
Josué:that's a great that's a great example. And it's it's just like you in a nutshell. That's what the movie is. Right? She starts noticing little by little like, oh, wait a minute.
Josué:And then there's a whole
Lara:adventure No. And a whole life Wait. I don't want my life to be like this.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I'll bring something up. I don't know if this all if if if it's worth discussing or not, but I just read, just reread a book. It's about it's by a psychologist, but also he's, he's also like a spiritual leader.
Josué:He was saying that he struggles when he's doing psychotherapy because he struggles with the part of him that can help people spiritually versus helping people with psychotherapy. Because he said that sometimes he feels that psychotherapy is helping people feel relief, but is not helping them necessarily change. That's debatable on the theory and exactly what your goals are. But he says, sometimes people need to suffer enough to then wake up so that they can go ahead and start solving the problem. And I think that, like, hit me.
Josué:Right? I think it's and I think that's something in all of these stories. Right? Like, when Barbie's shoe breaks at the beginning, it's not a big deal. But it keeps progressing and progressing until finally she goes and she talks to somebody about it and they're like, oh, yeah.
Josué:Like, suddenly suddenly, like, it's like it's like there's cracks in the wall and then suddenly it opens up and you see things that you couldn't you can't forget it. The ignorance is bliss common. Right? Like, you've been you you see the matrix now. Can you stay there?
Josué:And I think that's where, like, a lot of the suffering comes in. And that's where we have discussions about, like, oh, it's about how you see the situation and, like, what do you accept and what you don't accept. And sometimes we stay wrapped up in that and we don't kill the trickster. We don't we're aren't willing to, you know, sacrifice something that is important to us. We're not willing to venture out into the unknown.
Josué:We're not willing to do all this other stuff. And I think, like in the Buffy example, it's like making a choice and then being okay with it. Right? Like, can choose to stay in this situation. And this goes back to the Viktor Frankl piece, right?
Josué:Like, I can choose to stay in this situation and not be miserable about it. I can I can see that it sucks and that it's not ideal and that there were other options, but I can choose to be okay with this version? I can I can choose to even be happy? I think that's really hard. And but if you want to make a change, it's it it usually is hard.
Josué:It's really hard. Yeah. Final thoughts. Link, anything you wanna add? You don't have to.
Josué:Lara?
Lara:I don't know if this is where you were going with this conversation and this topic, but it was a good conversation.
Josué:I have no idea where I was going with this. You derailed at the moment you were like, didn't we just do this? Are we stuck in a loop?
Link:We are.
Josué:Apparently, nothing's improved in the
Lara:last matrix.
Josué:Yeah. Or the it the cracks are are opening up wider now and I see more than I saw a few months ago and I'm getting closer to solving the problem.
Lara:Like you said in the beginning, like it is it's a different framing of it. But before it was the tools, this is like going back into the old habits rather than looking at the new tools. So many different problems we have in our life can be related and can have some of the same solutions.
Josué:I'll add one more media example and then we can go. And this one and this one is very related to our to like the the God of War Ragnarok discussion, which is there's an episode of Doctor Who, where the doctor is trapped in this castle. And he has to he's he's trapped, like and then he finds the way out. And he knows that in order to get out, he has to break this wall, literal wall. But if he goes to break the wall, he gets killed.
Josué:And so he goes and he does it. He started he starts realizing that that he's died multiple times attempting this before. So he is stuck in some kind of loop. Here, he's literally dying and, like, getting cloned and reformed. But point is, he goes through it and he he knows that he has to basically, he gets a couple punches at this like glass wall.
Josué:And every time he he he bakes a few dents in the wall and he gets killed. And he comes back and he goes through this whole ordeal, ends up at the same spot, punches the wall a few times. And every time he comes to the wall, he realizes, oh, I've been here before, and I'm punching and I I know it must be me. I should just add on to this because this is the only way out. And he keeps doing it basically for one and a half billion years, I believe, is what happens in the episode.
Josué:And finally, he breaks through. But he but he but, like, the point being that sometimes you have to go through the same like, it's a process, right? And sometimes it's just like a little bit and it doesn't feel like you're moving in in a direction. It feels like you're still exactly where you were before. But sometimes little bits are moving you.
Josué:Like you are making a difference even though it doesn't feel that way. One of my favorite doctor episodes is really good, but something to keep in mind.
Link:I thought of something. I saw I saw a TikTok recently that was two young women talking about how they made a pact where in any piece of media where there is a a Groundhog Day situation, the main character spends so long trying to convince someone else that that thing is happening. So they swore to each other, if you come to me and you say you're in a Groundhog Day, I believe you 100%. Believe you 100%. Think I think we should do that for each other, here on this podcast.
Link:Our listeners are witnesses. If any of us come to you and say we're stuck in Groundhog Day, believe us.
Josué:There are very few shows and movies where that happens where somebody comes to a character and they go to the they finally go to somebody who's like, oh, yeah. Sure. No. I believe you. Like, crazy shit happens all the time.
Josué:Are you are you kidding? Like Mhmm. This world is fucked up. Yeah. No.
Josué:Okay. Let's do it.
Link:I'm on board. Let's do it.
Josué:You need that person in your life. I think I'm stuck. That's funny because I've been reflecting on that. I have a friend who, like, I I talk to often, and, I don't think she feels like I feel like I'm stuck and and and I need to break out of this loop. And I think she she's more like, your loop is just fine.
Josué:You should do everything. You should really stay in that loop. Like, leaving that loop is unsafe. It's in it there's no security. There's uncertainty.
Josué:I don't think you want you wanna break that loop. Like, yeah. I don't know how I do. You're not helping. So find yourself somebody who will, sign this pact.
Josué:I will do that for both of you. Absolutely.
Lara:Alright. Alright. It's a deal.
Josué:I'll do that for anybody who's listening. Yeah. Just let us know. Email us. Go to our community spaces or in the show notes, physiquetherapy.org, and let us know.
Josué:We'll we'll back you up. Remember to geek out into good. Find that person who can who can help you break out of the loop. And we'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
