Star Wars: Outlaws & Forced Morality Mechanics in Games
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cordona. I am joined by Lara Taylor.
Lara:Hey.
Josué:And Link Keller.
Link:Hello.
Josué:Lara, you were playing the brand new Star Wars game. Star Wars Outlaw. Outlaw? Mhmm. Outlaws?
Lara:Outlaws.
Josué:Outlaws? I wanna play it. Haven't played it. No spoilers.
Lara:I'm a sucker for a cute pet. I know that's not your thing necessarily, but I mean
Josué:I like Star Wars pets. I like those. Okay. Well, this one
Lara:helps you cheat at Suboxone. So it's pretty cool.
Josué:Awesome. Awesome. And the topic that that kinda how you pitched it made me I found it to be a really good conversation starter because it sparked in me a bunch of thoughts and ideas that I have found difficult to discuss lately in real life. And I found it could be helpful. So I think I think it's a good it's a good thing to look at.
Josué:And especially through the context of like the lens of today, because I know we've probably talked about morality systems and things like that in the past. So Yeah. Yeah. What what what's your what's your what's your idea?
Lara:My idea was I'm playing outlaws and there's a reputation system. You're like the game says, you're an outlaw, and you are trying to get jobs from different cartels. So there's the huts, the pikes, and Crimson Dawn. And it's interesting because the game kinda sets you up to, like, want to be in alignment with one faction. And on the first planet, like, are two primary of the three different ones.
Lara:And your reputation with one goes up pretty good and you get better benefits with them. You get free stuff. And then it's bad with the other one as you do more jobs for the one in the story. And they try to shoot you any time you go into their their territory. And they, you know, want to kill you.
Lara:When you buy from their merchants, you get bad prices and sometimes can't buy certain things. But while I was playing, there's a part in actually quite a few of the quests where you're hired by one of the factions, and then you get almost to the end, and there's an option. Someone comes along and is like, you know, you could cut them out of the deal and you could, you know, just work for us instead and give us the information instead. And something, especially in the main storyline, one of some of the the side quests, didn't care as much. But in the big storyline, me knowing that probably all three of these guys are gonna screw me over at some point in this game, I really had a problem with the crossover, the the the double cross piece.
Lara:Like, I did not wanna double cross these people. I was like, they've actually been good to me. They've given me work. These other people tried to kill me right off the bat. Like, I don't wanna I don't wanna screw with that.
Lara:Like and yet, I could be locking myself out of other parts of the game because I'm like, no. I'm not gonna double cross them. And I'm pretty sure coming up very soon, I get the feeling the people that I was like, I'm gonna stand by them are gonna screw me over. But, I mean, that I think that's the theme of the game that you get screwed over by everybody. But it was just this moment of, like, this doesn't feel good.
Lara:I don't like that.
Josué:What is it that didn't feel good exactly? Because I see a different a few different possibilities.
Lara:Well, one, I am an incredibly loyal person at heart playing a game about outlaws. My friends are are my, like, ride or die people. I will never, like, do anything on purpose to hurt them. And so, like, me playing a game where I have to make choices that don't necessarily feel good and I have to screw somebody over. Well, I guess in some ways, I guess okay.
Lara:The story in the beginning does force you to screw somebody over. So, I mean, this character really doesn't care and plays to whoever is gonna pay her the most or get her the parts she needs to get her ship working or whatever. So I think it's a really interesting choice. And I don't know that I've played another game quite like this in like, I've played other games with reputation systems, and I always play the good guy. But I don't think I ever get to play the good guy in this one.
Lara:So that's an interesting piece that I just thought of right now.
Josué:So part of it is loyalty
Link:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Josué:In a way. And like history with And I wanna stick with the
Lara:thing I started with. Right? Like
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Attachment. Okay.
Josué:And then another piece seems like you're weighing the pros and the cons of making that choice in terms of access and I don't know. Maybe reputation, but access or mostly.
Lara:Yeah. And I've been trying slowly to, like, okay. I can build that reputation up, but I can do another another faction's thing so that it brings it down just enough so I'm still in the range of whatever so that I can pull out, like, out of the poor out of the bad and into the poor. So maybe they won't actually try to murder me all the time. It's it's complicated.
Lara:It's a complicated game to play for me.
Josué:To to me
Lara:And I like it. I'm having fun.
Josué:You just sounded like cheating on on The Good Place to me. Mhmm. Where it's like, you're looking at all, like, the morality of it from and like, what if I don't what if I only need this much? Is it still that's okay? Like, how far can I go?
Lara:And the other piece for me is that I am right now have aligned myself with the one that is in the story. Like, that's the one that they kind of lead you towards to do the tutorial and help you figure out the system. And that's the one I didn't want to double cross. And out of the three, they seem the least sleazy.
Link:I like the the use of the word seem in there. They seem really giving yourself a lot of backup space if you need to. You're like, I feel like the betrayal is coming, so I need to give myself a little bit of room to take that back.
Lara:I know who these people are because they're in other they're in movies and things like that. So I know it's it's a they're gonna I know they're gonna get me. I know something's gonna happen, and they're gonna screw me over. And I'm like, when? And I already I already got to a point where someone not one of the factions, someone I trusted, screwed me over and tried to have me killed.
Lara:So this game is just full of, like, how dare they? How dare they? Now I wanna get them. That kind of thing. Like I said, it's a lot of fun.
Lara:A lot of people are complaining about this game on the Internet. I have not run into any of those problems. And listen, it's just fun to run around Star Wars and try to not be killed by bad guys while you're also a bad guy.
Josué:I when when I watch a movie, read a book, play a game, I lose myself. Mhmm. Right? So so I struggle with those types of decisions. Like, I will put the controller down.
Josué:Like, I need to think about it. I need to pace. It's a game. It shouldn't matter. I can replay it and do it differently, but I I I'm not.
Josué:Right? Like, in the moment, I'm like, what what do I do? Right? So I can I can I can relate to that feeling of, like, you you didn't like that that I I don't wanna be in that position in the game? Reminds me of The Last of Us.
Josué:I know a lot of people, like, right at the end of the game, you don't have a choice to progress the story. And for a lot of people, the choice that the character that Joel makes is not the one that you would want to make. And so, like, people will walk away, step away from the controller, have to really deal with that with that decision. Oh, so
Lara:when we played A Way Out, you did not wanna play the end of the game. You were like, I don't like this. I don't wanna be doing this. This is when,
Josué:like Interesting. I don't remember. What what what was it?
Lara:That's the one where they're escaping the prison. Right? No.
Josué:No. I know that.
Lara:Yeah. What happened? Together the whole time. Yeah. But in the end, your character screwed me over and was trying to chase like, kill me.
Josué:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't wanna kill you. Yeah.
Josué:Not back then. Yeah. I don't wanna mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. No. That sucks. Right? Like, that feeling of just like, ugh.
Josué:And so and so this is and I've played games with morality systems, and I do part of it is just like, who? It's hard for me to play a character. Right? So it's usually most of, like, what what I do, what do I feel comfortable doing. And in some games, it's really just about access.
Josué:But I think I think at least that's the part that stands out to me the most. Like, how does the I'm a completionist. Experience in the world change?
Lara:Like, I'm a completionist, and they're I don't know how to complete this game because there you don't have access to all the like, they pop up treasures everywhere. And it's like, how am I gonna get to this without destroying my reputation with the people that I'm good with? Or and I don't wanna steal from them because then they'll shoot me and kill me. Or how do I get to this other place because the they're already trying to kill me?
Josué:And they outlaw. Just kill them all.
Lara:Yeah. Mhmm. You get locked out of certain there are certain quests you can't take because your reputation is garbage. And so you have to work to build that up. And I'm running into that right now because the third cartel, I haven't had a chance to really work for them yet and build any reputation, so I can't get quests for them yet.
Lara:It's very Cutting. But it is making me think a lot about, like, decisions and, like, choices. And, like, I don't know. It's very it's pushing me, but in a good way. See, other people like you would be like, I don't know what they'll do.
Lara:I'm gonna put this controller down. You're gonna be putting the controller down every, like, ten minutes.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Probably.
Lara:Or just kill them all. You're an outlaw.
Josué:Maybe. Depends. I may just clearly see which one I'm more aligned with. And then Mhmm. Spoil it Go for go figure out which one.
Josué:Mhmm. Yeah. That might be that might be.
Link:I'm just looking up who gets the coolest outfits. I
Lara:mean, that is also a viable option. Right? The huts the the huts, the crimson dawn, or the pikes. Honestly, of the outfits you can get, I'm currently leaning toward either huts or crimson dawn. It depends.
Lara:Some of the pants are better than the tops. Some of the blaster holsters are better. Some of the little
Josué:I I got kicked out of
Link:the gang because I kept wearing the other team's pants.
Josué:I this this makes me think about a lot of things, but I'm curious, like, just in general, this game mechanic, this kind of situation, what what comes to mind? What are your thoughts?
Link:I think I mean, I think reputation and or morality systems in games are always very interesting, just because of the way that it gets turned into a system is very interesting to me. And I think it does. It says a lot about the creators of the game and their beliefs about the world. And also what is fun to play. I think that is a really interesting balancing act to pull off.
Link:One of the things that immediately comes to mind is BioShock, and how it has the quote unquote, good ending and the quote unquote, bad ending. And you can only get the good ending spoilers for a very old game. If you save every little sister if you eat even one of them, you get the bad ending. And I always thought that that was an interesting choice. Because in video games, very much experimentation is part of the like, you want your players to experiment with the game, because that's how you learn it.
Link:And that's how you have fun. And so it's very interesting to put in a mechanic that is like even if you engage with this even one time, you get the bad ending. And you don't necessarily get that payoff unless you play all the way to the end and finish it. So there are a lot of people who never find out that that was a choice that they made that was important. But I do think it's very interesting.
Link:The way the way that those systems work inside of games, I think I think there's a Yeah, there's very interesting stuff.
Josué:Have any of you played diplomacy? The game called diplomacy?
Lara:No, yes.
Josué:So diplomacy,
Lara:that's the
Link:card game, right?
Josué:It's not it's not really a card game. It has I'm curious, as you look it up, how what the the like, what the pitch is for the game. But it's basically each person represents a country. And then you have to create allegiances and this
Link:is this is not the game that I thought it was.
Josué:So how was it described? What do you see as a description?
Link:Diplomacy is a strategic board game. Created in 1954 released commercially in 1958 is distinct from most war games in that the negotiation phases and absence of dice that produce random effects. It doesn't have
Josué:cards, no cards,
Link:no cards, no dice. Yeah, because it doesn't want there to be that random element. Very interesting. Very, is a very interesting way to the way to make it into a system to have reputation or
Josué:And the way that it works The is that idea of diplomacy is that you are, are stabbing everybody in the back. Like, are a country and you are making deals with different people. But, like, maybe, Lara, you and I are like, look, I'm gonna pretend that I want to help, you know, that I'm doing an allegiance with Link. And so we're going to you know, Link is going to agree to
Link:real allegiance.
Josué:Push through. Yeah. This way. But then I'm actually you're actually gonna attack from the other side, and I'm actually gonna attack once I'm inside. Right?
Josué:And then it's like, it's you and me partnered up with Link. I mean, against link in that turn. But you may have also done the same thing with somebody else. You're also screaming. Right?
Josué:So all these types of things like
Lara:like survivor and all kinds of things like that. Yeah.
Link:The the Game of Thrones board game has a diplomacy element to it. That in the in the height of Game of Thrones interest when we were having like weekly dinners and meetups and everything, Whatever season we were on ended and I was like, I'm not done yet. Let's have a let's have a party and we'll do a big feast because I had the game. I Song of Ice and Fire cookbook. We did a feast and we played the board game.
Link:But because I knew we were going to be playing the board game. I used like, the week and a half beforehand to like, figure out like, okay, which house you know, do you want to play and like, okay, here's what like your cards are going to be and everything and then being like, okay, well, I know where because the houses are tied to a geographic spot on the map. It's like I was able to start doing some real intense like, well, okay, so in like round three, you're obviously gonna be pushing north because that's the only choice you have is to push north. And so I'm gonna come in from the East and we're gonna we're gonna act like it's we're beefing already, like early on beefing round three, like, that's kind of fast to be beefing. And then we're gonna turn on the other house.
Link:This is like, oh, very, very fun. Definitely made my friends a little bit mad after that.
Josué:I hate diplomacy. I hate diplomacy. Because I don't want to I don't like it's difficult for me to lie. Yes. One, in in in the sense of like, you know, the hiding that I'm lying and two, it does not feel good.
Josué:So I I that part is hard for me.
Link:The the only way that that worked out for me is because I had so much lead up time to it. That historically if I play any kind of lying social game I get out very quickly because like you I'm one I prefer not to lie and two I'm not great at it when it happens I'm very like he I am the werewolf, you called it. But because I had that, like time to sort of like build it up, that gave me a real edge in that game that I think that was why everybody's like, there used to be like, you suck at this. How are you good this time?
Josué:Well, and then it's not just the line. It's the act of the actual betrayal, right, as well that I'm like, I don't I don't want to. I know it's the game. And there's a win state, but it's not worth the emotional discomfort for me nor and then and then this is this is the part that I'm gonna bring it back to outlaws. Lara, did you did it come into play at all your thoughts about how people would perceive you?
Josué:Not just, like, the consequences of the like, the, like, the literal game world closing or closing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the idea of, like, I don't want people to see me as this or that or, like, what it what would it mean?
Josué:Because, like, you might you might think this makes the most sense. Right? But then at the same time, it's like but, like, maybe you're betraying yourself or, you know, that that kind of thing where there's, like, an an image, piece to it that that you struggled with at all?
Lara:Maybe. Maybe not. I don't I don't think well, one, nobody's watching me play. So You're
Josué:watching yourself play?
Lara:I'm watching myself play. You'll remember. Also, there are some games with morality systems. Like, I I played Knights of the Old Republic, and I went dark with Knights of the Old Republic. I was dark side.
Lara:I think I did the same thing with was it Star Wars? It was unleashed or whatever with the
Josué:The Force Unleashed?
Lara:Force Unleashed. Yeah. I went dark with that too. So it's like, it depends. But this one, everything is morally gray.
Lara:Like, everything.
Josué:It's also not binary. Right?
Lara:Like Exactly. Like, three. Mhmm. Get three options. And it then it's, like, hard to choose.
Lara:And it's interesting because I think the story kind of led me to wanting to align with this one. But also, I think, again, they are the least sleazy, but that may just be because the story is leading me that way. And they helped me out when I was in a bind.
Josué:Sleezes in the eye of the beholder.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:As they say. Mhmm.
Lara:It's true. It's true. So I don't I don't think I was worried how anyone was going to look at now if our friend Parker was over here, then yes. I would be judged for every decision I made. So
Josué:And would that affect your do you think it would affect your decision making?
Lara:No. I don't mind pissing him off.
Link:I think that is that is such a good thing to bring up host way. I'm like, razzed off
Josué:of that.
Link:That was that's such a good thing. Because you're right. Like, when you're talking about diplomacy, like a board game that you are playing with other people in front of you in theory, I guess there's probably online versions but the idea of that like immediate their social outcomes of the actions that you take and there is that element to a much lesser extent in single player games but it still exists because I do I you know, about playing Baldur's Gate three, and talking to other people about will like what did you do during that section? What what did you choose to do here and there there is sometimes a layer of like social judgment that happens around that like oh my god you killed everyone there like wow that's that's pretty fucked up Like didn't didn't you know that if you did this thing that you could fully avoid that? It's like, No, I didn't know that.
Link:Or Yeah, I knew that I wanted to do the other thing.
Josué:Why'd we kill them? They annoyed me.
Link:Last time I saved them all so this time I had to see all of their corpses, I guess I completionist but yeah, I think there there is definitely an element of that of like, like whenever they put out like game metrics of like, in like, you know, choose how you want to play games where it's like, 75% of people want to be the good guy every time they are only ever going to play the best, goodest boy choices. And so how that affects like game development of like spending more time on building out those plot lines because you know, majority of people are only going to engage with those. Oh, yummy. That's good. That's good stuff.
Link:I do. I do think that there is absolutely a social element of like, with Star Wars of being like, well, there's three there's three groups like which one did you choose? And having it be like a Pokemon GO of like, well, oh, are you team are you team red or
Lara:are you team blue? It's like fun. But it's and it's not like the usual pick one of the three, light side, dark side, or bounty hunter. Right? Because I would always pick the bounty hunter and be a moral bounty hunter.
Lara:This is like you can make you can make more immoral decisions, but, like, everything here is like, you're stealing from people, you're killing people, you're you're smuggling drugs, like, there's all kinds of stuff. You can cheat at Sabacc, like, steal their money that way. There's and I think there's some places where you could be like, well, okay. These people are bad, so I might as well steal their money anyway or whatever. But in general, like, it's not good guys, bad guys in the middle.
Lara:This is like, it's all bad, which is makes for, I think, lot of interest a lot of interesting decision making, and why do you pick each one that you pick? Yeah.
Link:And I
Lara:wish they would put out some metrics when this game has been around for a while to see who
Link:I hope so too. Where. Love to see that stuff. I I've brought up this game before and I do always like fuck up with the title. So I did double check to make sure I was naming the right name.
Link:CRPG called tyranny where the it is a fantasy world game where the evil lord mastermind already won it is an evil where you are playing in an evil world and so 95% of the choices end up being are you choosing lawful evil or are you choosing chaotic evil And, and so that was always a very interesting interaction to me because it still did the sort of Mass Effect style, like binary choices, whereas you have the good response, the nothing really happens response and nobody cares. And then the bad response and this is you know, chaotic evil, nobody cares, lawful evil. And it was very interesting to see how that reframed the way I went into like, making choices, because I can't I can't be the good guy. But I can I can be the chaotic guy, which sometimes has good outcomes as part of the chaos? So it was like, very interesting.
Link:The like, logic steps of like, okay, how do I want this interaction to go? And what implications is that going to have for the next interaction?
Josué:Yeah. I was just thinking of Detroit become human when we play this game and did an episode on it.
Link:Someday I hope that you play that game again. Should together play that game again when we're like eight years out ten years out from it. So return to it.
Josué:So so but what was your reaction to seeing how my what my playthrough was like?
Link:I was very surprised. On sort of two levels one that the game would allow you to kill off a main character and experience at most 60% of the game.
Josué:Mhmm. Yep. That was me.
Link:Secondarily, that you chose that, that it happened and you went I'm committing to this which is very cool and I love that you did that but it is it was like two layers like one like built that into the game and two you agreed to do it like woah okay but it did truly give us very different experiences of that game that you missed out on a ton of content.
Josué:I think I think, like, I don't know if that counts, like, as the emergent gameplay, but definitely emergent storytelling piece of it, where as as, Lara, as you're talking about Outlaws, I'm I'm thinking of and and that's just why I brought up The Last of Us. You don't have the option to not choose, it seems like. Mhmm. Right? What happened to me in the trip become human, I'm almost certain, is that I froze and I decided to stand to stand by and then something happened because of my omission.
Lara:So your your indecision was a decision.
Josué:There was still a consequence to my doing nothing. And that consequence cut a third of the of the game of the story out completely.
Link:Well, I think when you were when you were first telling me about this is like, it gave you like, was like a like a failed choice and then it gave you like a secondary one of like, no, like, really push any button and you're like, Are you sure? Are you
Josué:really sure? Yeah.
Link:No. I'm I'm going to continue to choose. I don't know. And the game's like, fuck. Okay.
Link:She's dead now.
Josué:The game didn't want me to do what I did.
Link:No. The game the game did have mild pushback against that choice. It allowed it. Somebody spent time and effort building that out and and thinking of that as a potential play experience.
Josué:Yeah. It's so crazy that this is so for the rest of the game.
Link:I do still wonder if the other if the other two characters can also be killed permanently. I can't imagine. Because I don't know. I don't know. Because I would I if before you told me your experience, if you had told me that it was possible to kill one of them, I would be like, no.
Link:They're all vitally important to the plot. You're like, not that one.
Josué:It's like, Oh, shit. And so so like, I don't remember exactly what the like, what your reaction to the morality of it, right? Like the judgment may have been because I don't remember exactly. And I don't know if you remember. Because it did feel more like indecision than I don't know.
Josué:I don't remember the specifics. But but all those things come into play here because, again, like, outlaws puts you in an uncomfortable situation where but I think that there is as well I love that idea of, like, you don't have to make a choice. But that will all that also has consequences. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Link:I remember playing the Telltale's Walking Dead when it first came out, which what a game that had another that also had elements of like, there were options where you could just let the timer run out and not choose anything that way
Josué:when it was like a default.
Link:There was also yes options where you would just have
Josué:because it was like go left
Link:The to main guy's name, I'm totally blanking. Anyway, you could have him sometimes he would have an option that was just ellipses not response to people. But there were sometimes they do the two options and you could just sit there and watch the timer go down. And they all had they all had consequences for making that choice. So it was very fun.
Link:Like the first time playing it and at that point, it's like I never saw video games that would let you choose to just not say anything. Thought that was so novel and cool as a concept as a person who is often in real life conversations like, I'm just gonna choose not say I'm just gonna choose ellipses right now. I know it's my turn in the conversation. I am just gonna let it go. I'm gonna let the timer run out on that one.
Link:So it was very cool to see that in a game to have that that kind of interaction. Unfortunately, it became very clear that Telltale's The Walking Dead did not really have like actual impactful outcomes for making those kinds of choices. They were just sort of flavor, but that flavor was very good.
Josué:And another thing that that game did, that I thought was incredible and I still reference all the time is, Josué will remember that.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:You know, like, you make and then it's like, oh, that character saw you do the thing, and they they will remember it. And in the game, you're absolutely right. Like, like, ultimately, it didn't matter.
Link:Very, very few mattered. Some did legitimately they had impact down the road, but most of them it was a and b always lead to C,
Josué:but it would affect, but it would affect dialogue. And so like it would it would like channel. So like somebody might bring it up later or something might change. But that idea of like, like we were talking about the observations like no, the other characters saw you do it. And they're they're they took note of that.
Josué:And you're gonna find out later what I
Link:can remember the specifics of it. I do remember there being one instance in which I was like, I'm not good. Somebody asked me a question. I'm just not gonna reply to it. Ellipses choice and then it did the person will remember that and I was like, oh no, we don't feel bad about that one.
Link:I wait a second can I take that one back? I reload. No, except what you've done.
Josué:I like the ellipses. But the ellipses, I like to do it in games probably because it's so hard for me in real life to to stay quiet. So I'll I'll I'll use that to jump in then. The whole time that you're explaining the game at the beginning, Lara, I'm thinking of politics. Right?
Josué:I'm thinking of, like, right now, you know, multiple parties, what to do. You said things like, is there even a good choice? They're all bad. Like, what happens ultimately? There are consequences to that.
Link:They're all
Josué:kinda sleazy. Right? Like, again, not everybody agrees with those things.
Link:I know they're gonna fuck me over, but they haven't quite yet. Mhmm.
Lara:The the
Josué:They dress
Lara:differently. This one seems they have
Link:a cooler outfit. Oh, fuck.
Josué:What are you making choices based on? And and so it it makes me think not so much of or or the part that that was the part that that really activated me is the consequences of that action, and not the actual choosing of it. Right? Like, if we're talking about politics, like, the actual voting necessarily.
Lara:The what happens after whoever is in office.
Josué:Well, no. But just like the con the the conversations on a day to day.
Lara:Oh, yeah. The the consequences talking to other people about what your choices were. Mhmm.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, doing that in public. Right?
Josué:Like, we can we can debate on we're not going to, but here or on the efficacy of of of any one action. Right? But but your alignment, like, the the alignment with a particular party or group and and then the the social consequences of that. And so lately, I have chosen the ellipses when things come up because if I don't have the ellipses option, I am I am currently not surrounded by people who would want me around
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:In general. And I'm finding that more and more. And I'm also finding it, yeah. It's it's something that I that I think about constantly. And I'll so when I graduated, my mind has I've changed my mind about a lot of things over time.
Josué:But when I was in college, nine eleven happened. And I was at the time of, like, I wanna do something about that. And so I worked for the military as a civilian. By two years in, I was not okay. I was not okay.
Josué:And I was, like, in the worst depression I've ever been in my life, the closest I've ever been to suicidal. Like, it was just fucking terrible. And towards the end, I told people I remember telling people at work, I was like, I'm leaving. I'm not even putting this on my resume. I never like, I'm never going to talk about this again because, like, I am ashamed of of of being a part of this.
Josué:I don't say that often, because depending on who you're talking to or the groups that you're in, that does not go over well. It did not go over well with my employer at the time. And and that was, like, one of the first times where I felt like, oh, it's not like I'm not sure that it's very safe for me to do that because suddenly my job is on the line. Like, your reputation affects your job prospects and a whole bunch of other things that you could be judged on because they they are. Right?
Josué:There is, like there are factions, whether you can see them clearly or not, and people make decisions based on that. And so it is very that's why I'm I'm, like, I'm curious if when I play Owl laws, will I be like, I'm a Crimson whatever. Right? For sure. Like, I'm a normal pike, like, a 100%.
Josué:There's nothing. But, like, will I always say that I'm a pike depending where I'm at? Will I choose the ellipses? Because there are consequences to that that I don't that it's a it's a struggle. Right?
Josué:It's like, do you wave the flag constantly? And does that that has consequences? Or do you stay quiet? Do you act? Like, how do you do things?
Josué:How do you deal with that, with the effects of alignment? Or or and again, choices and and and non choices. That's where my mind went. So I feel like it would it felt like a good like, I don't know how I would have brought that up had you not brought out this example, like, like here. Sounds No.
Josué:A good conversation starter for me.
Lara:Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that that makes a lot of sense, right? That there are consequences for our actions, our beliefs, our vocalization of things and choosing the ellipses if we need to also has consequences. I know that I have a lot of friends who when you stay silent on a topic, they will not respect you either and kinda cut you off.
Lara:So I do think that this topic does lend to a lot of things going on today with a lot of different we can throw a dart at a dartboard and hit, like, any number of topics that, like, people are divided on right now and that people will judge each other over. So
Josué:Yeah. How I mean, it also the reflection also, like, how judgy I've become as well. Like, is is, like, how much you attribute to a particular belief or alignment as well. So like it goes, it goes around completely. Right?
Lara:Yeah. Think
Josué:you like Ready Player One, and all of a sudden, like people just think you're a particular type of person.
Lara:What does that say about you?
Josué:What what do you think that says about me?
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Yeah. Which is something that I'm finding harder to navigate in general, like, in conversations in general. Like, there there are arguments that I'm finding harder and harder to have of, like part of that includes sure. I mean, there's there's politics, the multiple parties, there's Israel, there's COVID, there's but I'm thinking of, like, authors separating authors from their works and things like this. Right?
Josué:It's
Lara:like Mhmm.
Josué:The the positions are so like, I don't get me wrong. I love to have the discussion and the argument. Sometimes I'm I'm I'm a little tired. I'm like too tired to to have it.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:I'm also I do choose the ellipses. So so when I worked at when I went to Chicago, I moved to Chicago, I moved to work within the diversity and inclusion department of a university. And I was having a conversation with a colleague, and I was telling her how I have family members who I went no contact with because of how racist they were. And she was of the opinion that you that, like, by not engaging with them, you're missing an opportunity Mhmm. To help them see things differently.
Josué:And that goes into a whole conversation about, like, if you're a person of color, why does it fall on you to do that? So it depends on, you know, who you're telling that to as well. But also, like, that shit is exhausting, and I don't know how don't know if I know this person. I don't I don't know that my words exactly are are the ones that are going to change their mind. And so, like, no contact is ellipsis in many ways.
Josué:Right? I'm like, yeah. You know, I'm not I'm not engaging anymore. But, yeah, shit. Video games.
Link:That's I do I do think that's that's really interesting that that idea of being like, well, what it like if you cut them off, then like what if you were gonna have the perfect argument that was going to change their hearts and it's like, that could go both ways. This is like,
Lara:what if they
Link:have the perfect argument that changes my heart? I think actually, I would rather nope. Cut. Block.
Josué:That's funny. That's funny.
Lara:Well and it's interesting because there are some like, Nina will tend to she doesn't block anyone when they say the weirdest out there shit or the most racist shit or whatever. But I will. I don't have the patience for it. I will I'll have a conversation. And then if it doesn't go well, I'm like, I don't I'm not gonna have the energy to have this conversation again.
Lara:I know where you stand. I know where I stand. But Nina is the one that kind of tries to bridge that gap with people, even in my own family. So it's good to have people in your life who will have that argument and have the energy to do it.
Josué:So how would you comparing you you and and Nina Mhmm. Would you?
Link:What kind of outlaws are you?
Josué:What faction
Lara:I don't know
Josué:if she would wanna
Lara:play this game other than for the cute pet. Like
Josué:Do you do you find then do like, my first thought was, Nina is more forgiving than you. No. But I don't know if that's accurate. So like, how would you how would you
Lara:less forgiving than I am.
Link:I think I think it's I think it's just different different people have different bandwidths for that kind of social interaction.
Josué:Mhmm.
Lara:I'd say she has more patience than I do.
Link:She does not patience is part of it. Compassion. Not that people who don't wanna engage don't have compassion. I it just it's
Lara:You could go both ways on that. Right?
Link:It it is
Lara:wanna engage might have too much compassion or not enough compassion either or.
Link:I think there's a lot of interacting things and that that sort of circles back to like this idea of systematized morality in video games is that video games can never reach the layer of complexity that real life has.
Josué:Not even Baldur's Gate three?
Link:Not even and Baldur's Gate three gets close. There are definitely like lots of little things that do actually get tracked and have payoff if the game doesn't fucking break. Questionable if that happens or not. Good luck to you all. But yeah, that there I think this is a great starting point for a conversation.
Link:But just as a starting point, right? If if this is the way to get into this kind of conversation about broader experiences, politics and morality questions within our own lives is so much more in sorry, is so much more intense and involved and complex with so many more interacting layers, many of which fully out of your control. That that video games oftentimes really, really shallow arguments that they are making about the morality of choices and things like that. So yeah, I do think it's a great conversation starter. But video games are maybe not the best medium for engaging on the broader side of it is much more internalized like your own.
Josué:Yeah, like I don't think you can open
Link:morality choices versus the broader implications of social systems and reputation and that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Josué:You can create you can, like, recreate a simulation of it. That would be
Lara:no, here's the thing. Think that is one representation.
Link:I think as computers get better, I think like, I don't think that possibility is off the table that you couldn't make, like, contextually a small situation that had the fullness of a real experience. I think the issue would be that's not fun. That's not fun to play. Most people want to have some sort of enjoyable experience within a game. It doesn't have to be happy.
Link:But some sort of enjoyable experience that I think if you made it a one for one, this is real life. I think most people be like this fucking blows dog. I don't want to play this ever again.
Lara:A lot of people did not like The Choice in The Last of Us, but they really liked killing, like, fungus zombies. So mhmm.
Josué:I introduced my my niece to the trolley problem last week. And the reason why I did that is because we were talking about self driving cars before. So I like I paused, asked her about the trolley problem. And I was like, and this is why we don't have self driving cars. It's because it is so nuanced, so complex.
Josué:There's so many so many pieces to it, and there's no right answer. Right? And so and so I was like, you can't you can't. Sorry. That's why that's why it doesn't it hasn't worked out.
Josué:And so I am very doubtful of how I get unless you're trying to make a very specific point.
Link:Yeah, I think about Papers, Please, where that has like a very strong message about what it is trying to communicate to its players through both the text that you read and also the mechanics of the way that you engage with the game. But it's, it's bleak. It is hard to play. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:I just want a game where I can do both, where I can where I can choose to have the ellipses, but also take action. Because depending on the circumstance I think that's why that's why it's so it's so difficult. You have so many different options and and choices.
Lara:Yeah. Well, I don't know if outlaw I have not played that much of Outlaws. This is a huge game. But Surprise. It's a satisfaction.
Lara:So far, only, like, two options of two, like, decision points have had a third option. And I think it was like I don't know. It it wasn't like an ellipsis. It was like double cross double cross for even more or, like, stick with the same person or whatever or something like that.
Josué:Yeah.
Lara:So
Josué:Then I'll ask one final question that has to do with the consequences piece. Right? Because that's the part that most stood out for me is that and and something that's probably the hardest to translate to real life. Where sure, you make a decision and then like, oh, you can't do these quests or maybe you can't access a particular area. Mhmm.
Josué:But in real life, you could get kicked out of your house, you could lose your job, you could get deported, you could get and a whole bunch of other things could happen. So I'm just curious how how often do you find yourselves in situations like that where you feel like the stakes are are are that high where and I don't mean you can include this, but I don't necessarily mean, like and I think I think it's different, but it's like, oh, I'm I'm queer, and and this is not a space like, this is who I am. But versus, like, this is a belief or, you know, or or an opinion. And that having, like, in you know, intense consequences. For example, working at a place where you don't agree with something that's going on and and speaking up or not.
Lara:Mhmm. It's interesting. I was thinking about, like, Baldur's Gate and how it can get those more extreme like, you can lose your romantic partner. You can lose, like, not just get locked out of quests, but, like, there are examples of people killing everybody and then not being able to access, like, half the game. Right?
Lara:That kind of thing. Just like in Detroit Become Human. Right? I think that it's not it's not a perfect, like, one to one analogy, but, like, it'll it'll work that, like, there are things that happen. And, like, I don't know, you can play a tiefling in Baldur's Gate and screw over all the tieflings.
Lara:And how does that work? What does that say? But I do think that in reality, there are people who, I don't know, I walk through the world being queer. Do I want to work at a place that doesn't necessarily look well on queer people or give opportunities to queer people? Probably not.
Lara:I'm probably not going to stay there. But I also don't look for those opportunities. I look for places that are specifically going to help me out and support queer people. But also, do I lose out on opportunities in general because of things? When I was younger, not as extreme, but when I was younger, my lip piercing, I would take it out because I was worried I wouldn't get a job in a job interview.
Lara:Now I'm like, fuck them. I don't care. Right. So I don't know. It's I think my attitude over time has changed.
Lara:I've gotten old and I care less. I have job opportunities. But there are other people that, like, may not have that privilege. Right?
Link:I don't think that you care less. I think that what you care about has changed. And I think that that is such an interesting way to, like, think about these kinds of games. Like, generally speaking, they get made, they're released, that's what it is. And so playing it when it first comes out when it's sort of contextualized, mostly generally speaking, games take a while to make but generally contextualized by it was made recently.
Link:So what is happening in the world contextualizes what the game is. And then, you know, we age and change and have experiences and and our belief systems shift or rearrange and our priorities shift and rearrange. And I think that that is also a really cool thing to be able to do is like re engage with these kinds of media and see how both our understanding of like the kinds of morality questions that they are asking, and also how we respond to them. And the ways that those change over time is very interesting, because definitely like my political beliefs as a 18 year old very distinct from my political beliefs now. And hopefully also distinct from my political beliefs and another many years don't make me do mad several years, decade plus.
Link:Ah, but yeah, I think I think that that is very interesting. Because, you know, I when I think about like, the discourse around some of the choices that you can make, like in Baldur's Gate around the companion characters and stuff, younger audiences has have very different feelings about certain choices than older audiences do. Some of that is they're younger, this is the first time they're encountering that that question at all. But there's also the element of context, The context of like, you know, getting getting older, having more experiences and reprioritizing like part the context of that question of like, Oh, well, no, that does change things. There's nuance and grayness to this.
Link:Yeah, I think I think video games are very cool. Like I said, ultimately, I do not think video games are the best medium for engaging with an exploring morality, but I do think it's a really fun place to start.
Lara:It's a good jumping off place. Yeah.
Link:Yes.
Josué:Yeah. So one one thing that I'm I find myself open being more and more vocal about that I have been hesitant about over the years, the mental health field. And so something that came to mind now is that within the mental health field, what I would call having a strong moral compass might be pathologized as splitting, for example, as this concept of like, you encounter someone or you don't like something, and then you immediately go from like, hot to cold. Right? And I've been thinking a lot about concepts like that, right?
Josué:Where it's like, what if I just have like a really like, I'm just firm in my beliefs or like this, but then but that's something that we even pathologize within That mental
Lara:reminds me of last week a client brought up a term to me that I had never heard, justice sensitivity. So like rejection sensitivity dysphoria, but for someone with ADHD or autism having justice sensitivity. And I was like, that sounds both accurate and bullshit. Why are we pathologizing it? Right?
Josué:Yeah. The idea of the strong sense of justice is how I've I've heard it worded mostly. Yeah. But it's like, this is unfair, and you you have a compulsion to react to it. And it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Josué:Why are you pathologizing? Even the name I brought this up to my to my sister recently. I brought up this concept of a strong sense of justice. And it's funny because the way she reacted, it it almost seemed like she thought I was being pretentious. Like, oh, you're the most the most just over here.
Josué:And I was like, I never thought of it that way. But I can see No.
Link:My justice is just very inflexible.
Josué:Exactly. Exactly.
Link:See, it's not better or worse. It just doesn't fucking bend.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, all these things come into mind. So again, within the mental health space of like, yeah, the way we talk about this in particular is very strange.
Josué:And there are answers to why, I think, that are pretty clear. Yeah. Yeah. It's much easier to not have you fight and say something if you think that you're sick. You know?
Josué:I think you're just sick. It's the problem. Mhmm. It's not okay. So so I do yeah.
Josué:I kind of I I like I think it's cool when games let you give you some kind of choice. And not just the illusion of it. Right? But, like, but, like, that you do have different paths that you can go down and then there are consequences for your actions. I mean, any story that doesn't have consequences for the actions is just a shitty story.
Josué:But
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:But I do think that that feels cool where you can, like, sit there and be like, which one do I wanna do? Which do I wanna do? Let's do that. Yeah. Cool.
Josué:Alright. Any final thoughts on for your topic?
Lara:Pick the right faction. I honestly don't know if at the end of the game that it's gonna even matter. It could matter. It could not matter. I have no
Link:idea. Gonna get to the final act and the games could be like, we didn't tell you. There was a very clearly good team and a very clearly bad team and you didn't even notice. What the fuck game? Come on.
Josué:Yeah.
Link:But always side with the droids. Whichever team has the most droids on it, that's the side you should pick. Listen. Nyx Nyx is
Lara:my I am droiding with Nyx who droiding.
Josué:I am
Lara:I am siding with Nyx who is the little the little guy that runs around with you, and he does all kinds of things for you. And you help him find cute little trinkets, and he's just the best.
Josué:Let Nyx choose. And that way, it's never your fault, whatever happens.
Link:Mostly trinket based morality system. That's good. That's good stuff.
Josué:Link?
Link:I I just you know, we we touched on The Good Place, and I think that that show is so fantastic, and it talks a lot about morality stuff, I think. And and the fuck the train tracks one. Goddamn it. Charlie. The trolley.
Link:The trolley problem. I don't know why my brain was like, you don't need words for that. The trolley problem. Great, great episode around the trolley problem. One of my favorites.
Link:Highly recommend that show. Good stuff. Yeah, play video games. Think about choices that you're making why you're making them why they're the those are the choices in the game. That's isn't a cool outfit.
Link:That's valid. Go vibes based. It's a video game it's not that big of a deal. I'm talking on both sides of this it's all it says a lot about you individually personally deep in your soul who you are as a person but also it doesn't fucking matter. Don't worry about it.
Josué:Oh, my final thoughts are that I've already said too much, so I choose ellipses. Not at the end.
Lara:Love it.
Josué:Let us know what you think about this topic. And have you found a good way to talk about difficult things with people? Do you think something like a game like, this would help? Also, I wanna know what people think about diplomacy in games like that because that is that is I don't like it. It's hard for me.
Josué:You can share your thoughts with us in our community spaces. Links in the show notes. For more geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good. And we'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
