Self-Worth in Media
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I am joined by Marc Cuiriz.
Marc:Yo.
Josué:And Link Keller.
Link:Hello.
Josué:Marc, how are you feeling?
Marc:You know, I'm feeling very contemplative today. And I wanted to, you know, just have a sit down, be nice and cozy by the fire, and have a nice long deep philosophical conversation on a topic that's been on my mind for quite some time. I don't know if I mentioned it in any of the previous episodes or this was something I only talked about, you know, you know, before the show or after the show. But I've been reading the A Court of Thorns and Roses series. And recently, like, when the within the last month or so, I finished or I got fully caught up.
Marc:So I I finished the the most recent book, A Court of Silver Flames. And that entire book, this idea of self worth popped into my head. And it was something that I kind of pondered on over and over again. And then in the episode where we were talking about the movie, A Man Called Otto, I ended up going back and actually reading the book that it's based that the movie is based off of. And that also kind of spurred on more of this idea of self worth.
Marc:And I kind of want to take a look and kind of one figure out kind of what the idea of self worth means to the each each of us, and then kind of take a look at the idea of understanding one's self worth discovering that rediscovering it after losing it, or feeling like you've lost it, types of all those different types of scenarios and just kind of take a look at you know, what, how do you guys feel about those types of things? Are there any other media examples that you guys have that kinda touch on these topics? And, yeah, I I just thought that'd be a nice, cozy little conversation to have tonight, especially as it's getting nice and chilly out there.
Josué:I'm curious. Is the in the book, do they talk about self worth? Like, do they call it that? Is it is it a is it a theme that is explicitly discussed or is it something that you picked up on? Not a Man Called Otto, the
Marc:the other one. No. I don't think no. It's not really something that is truly explicitly stated. I mean, there are poor parts where they state, like, the main character doesn't feel like she's worthy of friendships and things like that.
Link:Mean, that's pretty that's pretty explicit.
Marc:Okay. But I I think that's like, I don't feel like that was, like, entitled to, like, her own idea of self worth. Just like, I don't deserve friends. Like, in I mean, I guess you could say yes.
Link:Diagram is all I'm saying.
Marc:That that that's a bit of an overlap. I wouldn't say, like, if you when I think explicit, I mean, like, that's like, I have no self worth. Like, that's where my head goes. But, yeah, there's
Josué:Why, Marc? Why does it go there?
Marc:When you say explicitly, that's what the my head feels like it has to explicitly state self worth. Like, the those two that one word or that hyphenated word has to be explicitly there. Like, that's that's where my head goes. It's like explicit, it has to say it.
Josué:But to to to Link's point, right, what you said, if this if this character is thinking about whether they are worthy, right, like, worthy of friendship or or if they are maybe maybe the character is is thinking of it as, oh, my friends don't think that I'm good enough for them. Right? But that's something that's going on in that character's head. Right? Like, they might they may not necessarily know that for sure.
Josué:So you could you could have gone either way. Right? Like like, this is why I'm putting you on the spot. I'm saying, like like, you could have seen it as, like, do my do my friends think, like, that I'm that I'm worthy of their friendship? Or are you thinking, like, what am I worth?
Josué:What is my value? I think it's might want that one. But
Marc:yeah. Yeah. I to me, like, that's where my head goes is is that latter one where it's like, you know, what is my worth? What's my value? Like, where is my place in in the grand scheme of the universe, or really in the world that, you know, one experiences that in the day to day.
Marc:And both of these books, kinda touch on that. In a man called in the book, it's a man called Ove. But for, you know, just just for sake, I'm just gonna say Otto because the I my mind is just gonna keep saying that. You know? To so with that book, it's very much that is very much not so much the the topic.
Marc:And I know we've talked about the whole premise of the whole story before.
Josué:But
Marc:there was one part in that book explicit like that that that the author writes about where that that's to me was like the link of he was saying how like he was talking to his his wife's gravesite. And he was saying, like, was like thinking to himself that he hasn't had much of a purpose or life hasn't been worth living without her. Like, he did it like, was like after shortly after meeting her for the first time, he decided that his life was dedicated to trying to make her happy or just wanting to be with her. And when she passes, it's like, there's no purpose. I have no worth in this life now because you're not here with me.
Marc:And then, of course, throughout the whole book that it's, you know, meeting all the people in the neighborhood and slowly realizing that there is more to life than simply just this one relationship that he has. And just because she's gone, that doesn't mean that it's that there's nothing there. There's still plenty of other people, plenty of other relationships that he can cherish and and, you know, interact with.
Josué:So what kind of reflections did you have reading, like, again, newest work?
Marc:Yeah. So in his newest book, like a lot of things that I was kind of thinking I was like, What? To me, was like, well, what's the what's this whole? Like, what is the idea of self worth? And how does one like, define that for themselves?
Marc:Like, it's kinda like with a blotch a lot of different things like, you know, see, everybody has a different idea of what success means to them. So I was like, okay. So like, for this character, what is their idea of self worth? Like, how do they determine their own value? And what are they able to provide not only to themselves, but to the people they care about?
Marc:And also, like, taking a look at like, well, how does one build that insight? Or if, you know, if you lose that sense, because you know, either traumatic events or just major changes in life. And it's like, how does one rediscover that, that idea of self worth? What I that's that those are some of the things that I like that were coming up in my mind as I finished the book. I was thinking about the book having conversations with friends who have also read the book.
Marc:Like, these are thoughts that came to my head and questions that I was asking. I was like, well, like, what does this mean? And, like, how does it work? How do you take that?
Josué:Self worth. I've been struggling with, not my self worth, but with with the concept of of defining what that means. Like, personally, when I hear the word, I think think of it as a yes, as evaluation, but more in terms of, like, you know, quality. Right? Like, judgment.
Josué:Right? Like, if somebody's self worth is low, I don't see it too differently from self esteem, but I don't think I can separate those concepts very well within, like, self esteem and self worth.
Link:I feel like they do go together. I feel like self esteem is more contextual in the moment, and self worth is sort of the more, like, stable overarching belief and attitude about yourself.
Josué:So what do you think of when when like, tell me more about what you think of when that term of self worth comes up?
Link:Ah, I guess I guess for me, it tends to come more along the lines of like,
Josué:maybe
Link:like older characters looking back over like a series of events that have happened to them. Less so like a like a coming of age adventure is like the thing is happening right now. I don't know. I I do have another book series example that came to mind as with just self worth as the topic, but I don't know if I I don't know if I wanna switch gears quite yet.
Josué:Is it is it will it help you explain your your concept or or no?
Marc:Do it. Do it.
Link:I'm just I I guess what my reticence in this moment is I'm still kinda struggling how to talk about this without fully spoilering
Josué:Oh. The book.
Link:I'm like, is there a way to do that?
Josué:What what's the book?
Link:It is Gideon the Ninth most specifically, but it is kind of the whole series that is released up to this point. Oh.
Josué:Yeah. I don't know if I want you to do that.
Link:Yeah. That's again, that's where that's where I'm coming from. It's like that I was like, there there's a good example in there, but I don't know if there's a way to really talk about it without straight up just saying, like, here's what happens in the book. Here's the larger implications of that. Like, oh, okay.
Link:It's a lot.
Josué:Yeah. Hopefully, is an attention, but I have been thinking about how we we refer to stories. And if it's enough to just refer to a story in a very generic sense of like, just imagine a prince going through the thing or just imagine two friends on a on a on a trip delivering an important item. You know? And, like, you just don't refer to, you know, like like, if the
Link:was there. No. Wait. Not that.
Josué:Not that. No. No. Did I say Frodo? But I but I get it.
Josué:We'll try try try to we weave it in, you know.
Link:I think I think just ultimately that there is a character in the locked tomb series. Mhmm. Oh, I can do this. I'm so skilled at this. There is a character in the locked tomb series by Tamsen Muir.
Link:Highly recommend. Audiobooks also great. This character, the circumstances of their birth has shaped their whole life.
Josué:And
Link:it's bad. But this character is also very talented. And so there is many instances in which this character has very high self esteem, but is always grappling ultimately with their self self worth because they do not feel that the circumstances of their birth were worth it. Oh, I think I did it. I think I pulled it off.
Link:Did that make sense? Or was that fully nonsense?
Marc:I I I understood that.
Link:Right. Right. It's she she has a lot. She has a lot of self esteem about her her capabilities to do things, but ultimately is like a thing that happened fully out of her control. She wasn't born yet.
Link:But it is a thing that happens to and because of her and so she feels very unworthy often.
Josué:Yeah.
Marc:I get I get it.
Josué:You said you said she has self esteem. Do you mean like she has high self esteem or low self esteem?
Link:She has high self esteem. Got it. Low self worth. So using using my my reference point before of self esteem being more contextual in the moment, versus self worth being like sort of sort of overall belief about oneself.
Josué:This one's gonna be tricky to talk about. Not not not the book, but just like the topic in general. Yes. We're already mixing things like worthy and worth it and self worth. But but, yeah, self esteem is like believing I think you're you're saying in the sense of, like, she believes in herself, right, in her capabilities and her ability to do things.
Link:Yes.
Josué:But inherently, is is her self worth idea, how informed is it by her environment and society? Because, like, she's she's not accepted by people because of the circumstances of her.
Link:Well, so the thing is is I mean, she is. She is she is very accepted.
Josué:But she disagrees with
Link:it? But she she has either more knowledge about that thing that happens than other people or the other people who did know about it were like participants in like, yeah, of course, it's worth it because we we chose to do that thing. That's a horrible atrocity. I can say that much and not not spoiler anything. I think that gives gives the sort of scale.
Link:Horrible atrocity.
Josué:Okay. Okay. Okay. I kind of
Marc:okay. What do think, Marc?
Josué:Is that is that that going is that is that in line with some of the themes that you're that you're that you have on your mind?
Link:I don't I feel like they don't match up, but they sort of show, like, us another side of that that aspect. Because your care like, the character in in the crown of thorns
Marc:Court of thorns and roses.
Link:Court of thorns and roses. Like, in the book, terrible things are happening. Right? That is my understanding. I have not read this series, but that is my understanding is that some some of these things that these characters are having big emotional feelings about are things that you get to read as they happen.
Link:Right?
Marc:Yes. The the last book is very much kind of grapplings grappling with the after like, with the aftermath of what happens in the the third book. Because the fourth book is like novellas. So like what it's really the the this the silver flames very much deals with the aftermath of what happens with the events that take place in the third book. Yeah.
Marc:So but I definitely would agree is that like, there is with that idea that self esteem is very contextual, and self worth is the overall belief that one carries with themselves. Because in silver flames, like, that is also very much like a present thing. Like, you can see that, like, you can see that the way that the main character carries herself and is like, you know, in certain events, it's like, I know I got this. I know I can do this. But then, like, in their mind, it's like, yeah.
Marc:But all this is to them, it's like, no. But this is all a lie. Or, like, I don't deserve any of this. Or it's like, you know, I'm doing this just purely out of protection, but then, like, you know but they they have that that high self esteem with them. And then it just like, in them when they're, you know, by themselves or whatever, then it's it just all kinda fall fades away.
Josué:Okay. So I recently rewatched The Matrix. In The Matrix, Neo does not believe that he is the one. Morpheus believes he is the one. People around him believe or don't believe depending on the way that they interpret different events as they happen.
Josué:So would would you would you think that Neo not believing that he is the one while other people do believe that he is the one, is that is that like a self worth thing in the way that you're talking about it?
Marc:Well, I guess that would depend on why he doesn't believe he's the one.
Josué:Oh, explain.
Marc:So I think, like, if if it's more of, like, like, oh, I'm not the one because, you know, either they're just refusing the role or it's like, no. No. No. You got the wrong guy kinda thing. I don't necessarily know if that's a 100%.
Marc:And and this is, like, where I'm questioning too because I I like you mentioned, this is a very confusing and a very difficult topic, which is why I wanted to talk about it. Yeah. Because I'm hoping that we can kind of make some sense out of all this. Because I'm like, to me, I'm like, is I don't know if that necessarily goes in that category of self worth.
Josué:But if it's like
Marc:but if it's if it was like, oh, you're the one and it's like, I don't have what it takes to be the one. Like, I'm not how on earth am I am I the one, you know, I'm not good enough for that. I I don't I don't fit that role.
Josué:Mhmm.
Marc:Then it's like, okay. If it's like, oh, I'd I'm not the one because I don't wanna be the one, then it's like that's more like a role refusal.
Link:Yeah. I feel like the matrix is such an interesting pull here because I don't think I don't think it's about self worth so much as it is the archetype role. Like it is part of the becoming the one that is the process requires a refusal of the oneness.
Josué:But he, throughout the movie, he doesn't he like he just he hasn't done anything to earn that. He doesn't understand why people think that he he would be that. I wonder if he would I wonder if Neo would think that because it's not about being worthy, right? But it's about having, do I have the value? Do I have value?
Marc:And this get I think if anything, the matrix would be more of that like, the story itself would be in line with the idea of discovering one's self worth because maybe there's no real insight into what that is what that is and how that plays, like, you know, taking a look at that bigger picture. And throughout the whole movie, Neo is slowly starting to understand the bigger picture and be like, ah, this is this is it.
Josué:Okay. Okay. So this does not work for what for what we're we're we're looking at.
Link:I don't know. I feel like I kind of circled back around on it because, ultimately, the story is about a person who was just a battery discovering that they were more.
Marc:Yeah. Absolutely.
Link:I've come around on it. I'm back in. Yeah. You got me. I love the matrix.
Marc:I don't think I don't think it was I don't I I think in in the the current top the conversation that we were having before, I don't think it necessarily fits into that. But it does fit with the topic because it's that idea of discovering it. Okay. Okay.
Josué:So this
Link:sort of an interesting element of this conversation is whether the the the medium, the book, the movie, what what have you, whatever it is, the the arts is interested in asking self worth questions, or having their characters engage with those questions versus if we the audience members are engaging with those aspects simply because of the events that occur within the thing that were like, well, but, you know, like, why did you do that? Why why did the character say that that thing and don't don't believe in themselves even though, you know, whatever evidence? But I think there there is an element of that where it's part of it is audience participation in the conversation about a characters because we don't we don't get to hear thoughts of characters a lot of the times, even in books where you do sometimes get I don't know if the ACOTOR books do omniscience internal. Omniscience internal dialogue stuff or not. I was kind of assuming it doesn't.
Link:But I could be wrong. I've been wrong before, but not getting that sort of insight. And so it is like that those kinds of topics, or ideas are coming from the audience reading into it.
Josué:So I think one one thing that is always interesting when talking about any type of evaluation or is that is that we we tend to talk about a universal valuation, which makes it difficult. So it's like, are you are you a good sibling? Are you a good parent? Are you a good worker? Are you a good friend?
Josué:Are you good at cooking? Are you a good warrior? Are you good at particular thing? Right? Like, things are you can have you can you can value yourself differently in in different identities and different roles and different aspects of your life.
Josué:Which ones did this character struggle with in the in the bookmark?
Marc:Repeat that.
Josué:So universal evaluation. Right? Like, for example, a client comes to you in the office and they tell you, I'm a piece of shit. Right? I suck as a human being.
Josué:I'm I I'm I'm I'm not worth like, I don't even know why I'm alive. Right? And then one way to break that down would be like, well, are you an are you entirely a piece of shit or are you like a piece of shit in some ways? Are you a piece of shit you or are you just a piece of shit at like, are you shitty at doing certain things or playing certain roles? Right?
Josué:And then you can start break that down where the person might say, actually, I think I'm a great friend, but maybe I'm not a great I haven't been a great son or a great daughter. Or maybe I'm I'm I'm really good at my job, but I I suck at this other thing. Right? Or, like, how how does the the character in the book where does the worth what what is the value?
Marc:Yeah. So I think it's I'm in the same boat as Link. I'm trying to, like, not get super spoilery spoilery with it. But there I think a lot of it revolves like, it's very much that idea that, like like you said, like, she's very much coming in and it's and it's just like, I am a shitty person. I is it's very much like I can't do anything right.
Marc:I am a terrible sister. I am a terrible daughter. Just all around just failing at everything is is very much the belief that they have. And then, you know, the the other characters in the book try to introduce things to her or showcase different things for her and help her kind of start to see like, you know, help her kind of break that down and be like, okay, maybe this one particular aspect, when it comes to like relationships. Yeah.
Marc:Maybe you're kind of ass with those. But, however, like, you're really great in these other things. And then, like, kinda helping her, like, helping to highlight those and helping her to kinda, like, realize, like, okay, maybe I'm not complete dog water. Like, you know, I can I I'm coming up with all the analogies today? You know, it's how big like that's in terms of the book, like the thing like that's kind of where they go with the worth self worth part is breaking it down in that way.
Link:As as you were describing this just now, I was reminded of Zuko from Avatar the last airbender. I feel like he fits this very well, especially early on his self worth is entirely tied to I have to make my daddy happy. Otherwise, I'm a waste of a human life. I must make daddy happy and and his character arc goes sort of deconstructing his relationship to his father and his relationship to power, and how his father and power are tied together and and all that stuff. I I think he fits fits well in here.
Josué:So I words matter and language is hard. And so sometimes when you have multiple definitions or or even theories, I think just like when I talk about when I do trainings and stuff and I say, like, you need a, like, a solid theory to look at the world through. Otherwise, you're gonna get it can be pretty confusing. At least no one so that you can take everything and and look at it through that lens. It it can be helpful.
Josué:So Carl Rogers had a a definition of self esteem, which if I'm getting wrong, somebody please correct me. But this is this is the way I understood it, and it was helpful for me. He said that there was something called our ideal self. Right? So I think that in Zuko's case, it would be the ideal prince, right, that is respected by his father, is a great warrior, and is able to be x y z.
Josué:Right? All of these things. He knows exactly what that ideal prince is supposed to be. Right? And then so that's your your ideal self.
Josué:And then you have your self image, which is how you view yourself. So Zuko sees himself as a bad prince, a bad son, a disgrace, incapable of at least unable to please his father. Right? And a and a good prince would would be able to please his father. Yeah.
Josué:And then self esteem ends up being the difference between the two. So if your ideal self is very different from your current self image, that is where the difference between the two is what Rogers called your self esteem. So if those were really close together, your self esteem is pretty high because you're like, oh, like, is the this is the metric. This is this is the the ideal. I'm pretty close to that.
Josué:I feel pretty good. But the farther you are from that, the the, you know, the more you struggle with with self esteem. And that was that's always been like, ever since I I got that definition in my head, it's been it's helped me think of this of self esteem in particular, of that idea. So when somebody sells self esteem, that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, what what ideal are you comparing your current self to?
Josué:Your ideal self can be extremely problematic. Right? Because it can be unrealistic and and not helpful and can be a bunch of stuff. And also your self image can be also incorrect. Right?
Josué:Like, you're actually really good, but you don't believe that you are really good. So that that's, you know, that's something that can also be you you can have a problem there as well. But ultimately, the self esteem thing comes from those two. So so going back to it's like with Zuko, it's like really it's clear for me, right, that he's so far from that ideal, and he's trying to get closer to that. And to do that, he has to achieve things like finding the avatar.
Josué:Right? Yeah. To meet to to to hit that ideal self. I don't know and get in or in or in the Locked Team series. I haven't gotten too far in that one yet and have no idea in the book that you're referencing, Marc.
Josué:But, like, using that kind of framework, does she does the character have an ideal that she does she know what the ideal looks like?
Marc:No. Not at all.
Josué:Then then why does she what is what what is the scale? What is the rating scale? She's a one out of 10? What what the 10 whats? I would have to shame the 10 is good.
Josué:I think that's that's the whole
Marc:point is that, like, it's like she's slowly kind of discovering that it's like, okay. Like, what like, why like, there there is no, like, point to working towards. I think, like, she's looking down on herself so heavily that, like, the idea of having an ideal self just isn't in the in like, it's not even a thought in her mind because she's like, I'm never even I'm never going to achieve that. Don't feel like it. Like, even conceptualize or formulate a concept of an ideal self.
Marc:Like, she's looking down and is is tearing herself down that much, that intensely. Like, the whole point, like, ever since, like, in in the aftermath of the the third book, like, in the novella and then in this book, like, it talks very much that, like, she is actively, like, trying to destroy herself through, like, drinking and, you know, moving basically, like, into the slummiest part of the city that isn't even a slum, but it's like, this is the most, like, rundown place she could find in this entire city, and she chose that place to live, You know, sleeping around with random people, like, she's actively trying to just destroy herself because she can't even conceptualize that I an idea of what an ideal self would look like for her. And she I don't think like she even wants to until, you know, she starts formulating and then the ideas start to form of like what that ideal self would look like someone who is stronger, who is more confident, who who's able to build and maintain relationships with with other people and form friendships, form deeper connections with other people as opposed to just being this isolatory person.
Josué:How did you feel watching her do all of those things?
Marc:I at first, like, I at first, I understood. Like, I I as someone who was, like, reading these books in in pretty rapid succession, like, wasn't a really you know, there was no pause. There was no break. No having to wait for the next book. Like, I was able to just kinda read these all the way through and just go right into the next book.
Marc:So I'm like, okay. I understand because, like, the stuff that happened in that in in the third book, like, the fourth and fifth books are happening, like, you know, only a few months after the fact. And when you're dealing with severe traumatic events and and severe trauma, like, hey, I get it. Like, you just survived a war. So at first, I kinda understood, like, where she was coming from.
Marc:Like, she's just doing what she can to cope, however, unhealthy. And then as the book kinda went on, then it was it turned briefly into pity and, like, feeling sorry for her. Mhmm. And then I started getting annoyed.
Josué:Annoyed. Why? Why? Like, what did you wanna yell at the screen?
Marc:I well, I don't know. It's a it's a thing for me. I think it's just a countertransfer. It's thing for me in particular just when it comes to people that have a hard time with, like, substances or or addictions of any kind just with my own personal history with my dad. So, like, I just can't help but get annoyed even though, like, I know that it's it's not the same.
Josué:Mhmm.
Marc:But for me, it's like that. And, you know, I I can listen to it, and I can understand it, and I can feel I can empathize for for a time, but then the more I'm reading it and the more I see like, oh, but here's all these good things and then reading and and and, you know, reading that they're self sabotaging
Josué:Mhmm.
Marc:Then I'm like, okay, no. What do you why? Why are you doing this? Like
Josué:So now you're seeing your you you see value in her, but she doesn't see it in herself. So you're annoyed that she doesn't see it.
Marc:Okay. Absolutely. Got it. Got it.
Josué:But she eventually figures out that she does.
Marc:Yes. About Okay. Three quarters
Link:I have a question. Yes. Does does that realization come from her having an experience and then realizing it? Or just is there an external force? Another character says something to her.
Link:We have a mentor, a friend, a beloved who's like, you're being a huge bowl of dog water
Marc:right now.
Link:Stop hating on yourself so hard.
Marc:No. I mean, there are moments like that, but, like, it's not like a, oh, yes. Like, I see it now. Like, people do try to tell her, but then it's, you know, then it's like, I know I'm a double it down now. I'm just gonna
Josué:show you what before.
Marc:You know? Oh, you telling me that? Well, how about I just prove you wrong? But it's very much like a slow, like, over time, like, as different experiences are happening, as, you know, progress is continuing to be made and as genuine connections are being made with other characters that kind of share similar experiences that she's gone through, then it's that slow internal realization and kind of working towards things and deciding, okay, yes, like, I do start to see the value in myself. And now I want to push and continue because I want to help my friends see the same things, or I want to show them that their their trust in me was was well placed or, you know, whatever it might be.
Link:Sort of like, we you were talking about before of her not having a idealized self and sort of the construction of that
Marc:Exactly.
Link:As as the turning point. Not a not a one singular big moment, but sort of shaping the homunculus of yourself.
Marc:Yeah. Exactly.
Link:Which I think is more realistic to human lives. Very rarely do we get one one big thing that reframes whole life and self esteem and self worth. Usually, it's a bunch of little things.
Josué:Mhmm. I'm I'm still what I'm still hung up on like, I I still think, like, she must have been comparing herself to something. You know? Like like
Marc:I mean, in terms of, like, if you're when you say comparison, like, in what way? Like, to, like, idealized version or
Josué:just No. Any type of valuation. Right? It's like Oh, yeah. No.
Marc:I mean, she yeah. She I mean, she definitely was comparing herself to, like, the scum. Like, like Yeah. Like, I am I am one of them. Like, I I don't deserve this.
Marc:Like, I'm an awful person because of events that happened that she blames herself for. So she's like, I'm I'm no better than, you know, the rats in the wall or whatever.
Josué:Got
Marc:it. So it there is very much like a comparison of evaluation. It's just that, like, there is no like, like, don't really see a whole lot of like, what what the other side of that evaluation scale is. Like that that that's being built and constructed.
Josué:So it's it's funny because this is playing out a lot like like like a like client work might might be with with a a client in a mental health and a counseling setting, right, where, like, that that kind of devaluation doesn't happen in a in a vacuum. Like, you just answered a whole bunch of questions for me in that in that in that last bit. I was like, these people are scum. Well, scum compared to what? Right?
Josué:So then there's there's version there are versions of that that like, there it sounds like she's got some regrets. It sounds like she's not proud of things that she's done. So it sounds like there there are and all those are that are are contributing to her feeling worth less. Right? If you want to play with the with the language, right?
Josué:It's like worth less than other x, y, or z. Right? Or she's worth less than had she done these other things. And because she didn't, now she is worth less. And she sees herself like this other group of people who she values less than another group of people.
Josué:Because if there weren't any differences, then we wouldn't have like, without that comparison. Because otherwise, then she's just lost and has no like, there's no guiding, like, there's no compass. But it sounds like the way the way you read it was that, like, she was definitely devaluing herself. It wasn't a matter of, I don't know what to do. I don't know who I am.
Josué:It was like, I'm I'm dog water. And and yeah.
Marc:That's the word of the day.
Link:Maybe the title of the episode.
Josué:My my nephew recently told me, I used to think you were a goat at Fortnite, but actually, you're you're dog water. I was like, well, didn't know better. Wow. You were very little. Now you know the truth.
Josué:It's happened 10 times
Link:for a while, think. Now.
Josué:It is. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Link:I I thought of another related character example. I've been working my way through, dimension 20, and the current season right now is Misfits and Magic season two. So before that started airing, I watched season one. The theme, it is a short season. It's just four episodes.
Link:But it is basically Harry Potter world. But it is, the first season is for, like, 17 year olds get to go to not called Hogwarts, but Hogwarts, and the implications of, like, the worst kind of people to get accepted into a magical boarding school. But one of them played by Brennan Lee Mulligan, Evan Kelp, which is a great name. He is functionally a Voldemort character. He's he is a Tom Tom Riddle.
Link:He is a an evil chosen one with fated to be the dark lord, and he's super uninterested in that. It's a very funny character. They do lots of silly stuff. But there is a part where in role play, he's talking about how, like, a lot of the the choices his character makes is, like, pushing people away as protective measures to you know, so they don't get hurt from being close to the scary guy. But he expresses this, like, to help his friends, he's willing to do anything.
Link:And one of the other player players, Erika Ishi, says something sort of offhand of like, oh, yeah. Well, he, you know, he doesn't believe he's valuable unless he can help unless he's he can be helpful. And there is a interview after the the series was done filming with Brennan Lee Mulligan where he was referring to that moment and he was like, we had to, like, pause for a moment because I realized that was me. That was that was an internalized belief I held very deeply about myself, that my my self worth was fully tied to my ability to be helpful to other people. It was completely externalized in that way.
Link:And talking about like, how that was like a big moment in like, you know, role playing as a silly character of having like this huge insight to your own internalized belief thoughts. I thought that was really cool. But yeah, it's sort of tying back into that self worth being very tied to external sir sources of somebody has to tell me I am worthy in order for me to believe it.
Josué:It sucks if you feel a general sense of low self worth.
Link:Yeah.
Josué:Don't have that thing to tie it to, which seems like kind of like what you were trying to say, Marc. And here, like, right there's that realization in the example you're giving, like, of like, oh, yeah. No. That's it. That's the one.
Josué:Maybe I didn't and and and that happens. Sometimes you you're not doing that thing that you didn't realize is your whole identity. And you feel down about it because you're not really there isn't an awareness of of how much stock you put into that. It's a good example. It's a really good example.
Josué:Yeah. Helping yeah. Helping people figure that out is sometimes hard. One one of my favorite things is to quantify. Like, you know, I keep talking about value as like a rating scale or quantity, right?
Josué:If somebody if a client would come to me and be like, I I don't know. I suck at sports. You know? And I'm like, Winner, but don't you don't you you've told me that you, like, you play I don't know. You play basketball every Friday with, you know, with friends.
Josué:It's like, yeah, but I'm, like, not really good. It's like, oh, yeah. Well, like, how did you score any any points? Like, yeah. I always score points.
Josué:Like, how, like, how many?
Marc:Like, I don't know. Like, I
Josué:usually score the most points on the team. Like, I'm like, what are you doing? Like, like, if somebody's like, oh, I'm not really good at work. And I'm like, how many years have you been there? Have you ever been fired?
Josué:Like, you can quantify it and you're like, prove it to me. Prove to me that you suck. Is is a good is a it tends to bring people face to face with the with the the concept and then it kind of
Link:It was being forced to, like, verbalize that is just like that often is the the the step of being like, oh, that's a belief I hold. Yeah. Never I've never thought it loud enough for it to be verbalized.
Josué:But but also it's it's sometimes sometimes it's silly. Right? It's kinda ridiculous. And then that's when you realize like, oh, actually, I'm I'm not dog water. I'm just not as good as I want to be or not as good as I think I should be because you're you're just taking it in as you're taking it as a fact.
Josué:And ultimately, that that's another thing too. I depend like, in some contexts, if you tell me let's say you make a movie. Right? Like, you make a movie. Like, you're like, it sucks.
Josué:And I'm like, to you, it sucks, but let other people see it. Right? Like, ultimately, the success of the movie is independent of whether you think it's good or not. Like, other people like and and your value of the movie, is it based on is it based on how much money it makes, how many people watched it, the reviews that it got? Like, there's all of these different aspects of it, and and many of them are not in your control.
Josué:The only one in your control is, like, what how you feel about it. And then you can tie your own self worth to that or not independently of of what of how other people rate it. So there's different ways to, like, shake people, shake up that that it's about it's about perception. And I yeah. I think we're always comparing.
Josué:Like, again, if there's got to be a scale. There's some numerical or qualitative scale that you're using and usually some kind of comparison. And I understand why that character may have been pretty annoying in the book. It definitely bothered bothered you. Did it remind you of like, you said you empathized at one point.
Josué:Mhmm. I'm just curious if it yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah. I mean, I empathize in the situation of like, you know, I can definitely imagine like there, you know, go like, I can only imagine like what that having to go through a lot of those experiences must be like. And, you know, being able to be like, okay, like, I get it. But then it's like the self sabotaging behavior. I think that in particular is what what really it really grinds my gears, you know.
Marc:I just I I don't know what it well, I do know what it is, but, like, it that's the part that, like, frustrates me and annoys me. And I think it's, like, for me, like, there definitely have been times when I know I have done that to my Yeah. To myself. And then I look back on on those point at those points in my life, you know, whether it's just reflection or, you know, when I was in therapy, and I was looking back on those things, and then I'm, like, kicking myself. I'm like, why did I do the things?
Marc:And then everything, like, the best way to encompass that is that meme where the person's riding the bike and they put the stick in the wheel, then they they fall over. Like, that's exactly what this is like. And I'm like, why? Why would you do that?
Link:Like Well, you see, was holding the stick, so I had to do something with it. Oh, ow. Oh, ouch. Ow. Oh.
Josué:So so you can was she self sabotaging or was she self punishing?
Link:What is the distinction between How
Josué:do you
Marc:tell the difference?
Josué:So you could good. The way I'm gonna define them then. Right? You may be self sabotaging unconsciously. Right?
Josué:Where it's like, I keep falling off the wagon on a diet, right? Or I keep saying the wrong things in a, in, in this friendship, and I'm like, pissing people off. And like, I didn't think about it before I said it. A different one is, I don't deserve that nice thing, so I'm gonna get a shittier version. Or, like, I don't deserve I don't try to do things that are you know, like, I could get the premium car wash, but I'm gonna get the basic one because I don't deserve it.
Josué:I'm going to sit over there because I'm gonna somebody who's more who deserves it more should should get that thing over there. So I'm just gonna do this one. Right? Like, you can you can do things or you can talk about yourself in a very negative way. And that's like, why why why are you doing this?
Josué:Like, oh, because I deserve it because I'm I'm punishing myself. Mhmm. Did I did I distinguish them enough? And No. I
Marc:I got it.
Link:I got I I feel like the, like, the it is not the when you're self sabotaging, is that is that not
Marc:I feel like self
Link:sabotaging not you are aware that it is happening on the conscious level, is it not because of an unconscious belief that you don't deserve the thing and that's why you're sabotaging it?
Josué:Sure. You can.
Link:So your your distinction is just if you are aware of it or not.
Josué:Exactly. Exactly. Alright. See. The book sounded to me like
Marc:I think it sounds well, the way I'm kind of saying it is that it's like that self self punishment is more of like a it's you you are aware of it, and it's more of like a deliberate thing. Like, you were you were making the conscious choice to do or or not give yourself the thing as a punishment. Like you were saying, I don't deserve this. So this is what I'm going to do. I don't deserve friends.
Marc:So I'm going to purposely say something to cause some chaos. Whereas self sabotaging can be like something that you're not fully aware of, like it's unconscious. And also, feel like there are times when, you know, our minds might be wanting something or be wanting to make forward progress. But then that, like, whatever the situation might call for might trigger a trauma response or my fall back on old responses and old habits that, you know, were that you've used before. And then that's just like the, the instinctive response to whatever it is or the instinctive reaction to set event.
Marc:Even though your mind's like, no. No. Wait. Wait. Wait.
Marc:Wait. Wait. Like, that's not what I want. But then it's like, but your body is already in motion. And so, like, it's not like the mind and the body isn't fully linked up.
Marc:Not always, but I feel like self sabotaging can be like that. Because I've in the book, there are definitely moments where like, you know, you you are, you know, you have the thoughts and she's like saying and she's thinking like, man, this would be nice if it could be like this or like I want this thing to happen, but I don't say anything. I don't do anything or I can't I can't stop it. I I can't help myself. I I I do this.
Marc:And then she's in private, like, in a room, and then she's kicking herself for it. Like, why did I do that? Or why didn't I ask this? Or or, you know, those sorts of things. And this in that case, it's like a self sabotaging because it's not so much like she's purposely saying, like, I don't deserve this or thinking, like, I don't deserve this, so I'm gonna fuck this up.
Marc:It's if anything, she does want to try and make that progress, but, like, she is unconsciously holding herself back or unconsciously messing it up for herself because on that subconscious level, it's I don't deserve this.
Josué:And and so why did it annoy you so much to see her in that situation?
Marc:I again, because it just remind I I it reminded me of myself in some ways. And I know for me like that, when I was in that mindset, like, it held me back from so many things. And, obviously, you know, it's it's a process, and and I've grown and that doesn't necessarily like I'm happy with the way my life has gone and now, but then I also think about people in my life that have done that, that have done the self sabotaging or have done the self punishment, and then expect sympathy, or pity, or assistance in some capacity. And, you know, when I was younger in my youth, as I should say, I would often cave or cater to that. Because, you know, they were they were people that I cared about.
Marc:And so that that's why when I when when the idea of self sabotage or self punishment comes up. I just I on that subconscious level I get annoyed and it just it just bubbles up. I feel it and I'm like just just stop. Just just. We're good.
Marc:Like, we don't need to do this no more. Yeah. But then that, like, that understanding kicks in where it's like, okay. But I also understand, like, this it's not necessarily something that they can fully control. It's because you were
Josué:there once.
Marc:Yeah. And you Exactly.
Josué:You you see it now. Like, if you were watching a recording of yourself back then
Marc:I'd be doing the same thing. I'd be saying the same things. I'd be getting just as annoyed with myself. Yeah. I like your
Josué:Oh, stop it. Yeah. You got all the information right there. You got everything. Why didn't you act sooner?
Marc:Got it. Exactly.
Josué:So pretty personal. I see. I see. Yeah. And I get that.
Josué:I get that. That's that's like a good place to view it from in a way. If it reminds you of, like at least you're not like that now all the time. I'm sure you're still like that sometimes. Yeah.
Josué:Not all the time.
Marc:Every I think everybody can be like that at times. Yeah.
Josué:Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's tough anytime. You know, when we when we talk about content warnings and things like that, sometimes it's so hard because you you never know exactly what it is that'll that'll really, like, spark a memory or affect you in a way that it was something that was, like, probably a a rough time for you.
Josué:And you're not I'm guessing you're not proud of the way you did things or or acted and I don't know. Do you feel more compassion to that version of you? That version of you? Or are you still mad at that version of you?
Marc:I feel like that's a bit of a loaded no.
Josué:Yeah. No. That was the impression
Link:that using We've the word annoyances sort of maybe paints the picture.
Marc:Yeah. I mean, there is
Josué:Why are you still angry at yourself?
Marc:I mean, it's me. I'm always angry with my that's my secret. I'm always angry with myself. No.
Link:Not ideal self would be more compassionate to the past self.
Marc:But the current self, the realistic self is still very much I wanted to give my younger self a swift kick in the ass. Yeah. But real answer is, I mean, there is still like, yes, there is some compassion. Like, I you know, I do understand it. And so there is that that bit of compassion, but I would be lying if I said that I did not that that annoyance was not there.
Marc:It is still very much there. It's just it doesn't pop up as often. And when it does pop up, like, it's nowhere near as intense as it was, you know, when I first started, like, kind of looking back Yeah. And having those intense feelings of annoyance and frustration. Like, now it's just like, you know, I get a little miffed, but I can typically move on.
Marc:I I I can I it is it doesn't really impact me significantly in a day to day?
Josué:Yeah. Relisten to this episode and see how you how you feel about listening to yourself talking about yourself. Listen. I I deliberately
Marc:I deliberately mute myself except
Josué:to
Marc:check my audio quality. I'll deliberately mute myself while I'm listening to make sure that I everything looks good.
Josué:This is a good one. You know, some week that you, like, maybe your therapist cancels on you, just play this episode back and see how you feel after. Oh. No. This is this is good.
Josué:This is this is I'm I'm glad you you brought this up because it obviously made you feel something, and that's that's the trick. That's where I think that's why I think the best way to understand each other and ourselves through the media we care about.
Marc:Absolutely. Couldn't agree.
Josué:Well done. Well done. Anything you wanna add? Any closing thoughts on on top of that, Marc?
Marc:No. Just well, I guess my closing thoughts are, you know, I'm glad that we had this conversation. I'm glad that I was able to, you know, be able to speak my thoughts into existence with you guys. And, you know, it's always fun getting put on the spot and, you know, continuing to talk about myself in various ways.
Josué:Link.
Link:Final thought. Another character that would have been good to talk about on this topic, Amethyst from Steven Universe.
Josué:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep. So
Link:just, you know, think about that.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah.
Link:Until next time.
Josué:That is a good one. That is a good one. I can't think of any others right now, but that one's really good. That one's really good. Thank you, Marc, for putting yourself out there.
Josué:If you want to rate Marc's value on a scale of one to 10, you can do it on any of our community spaces. The links are in the show notes. For more geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good. I'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
