Queer Films of the ’90s: Representation, Comedy, and Cultural Shifts
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona, and I'm joined by Link Keller
Link:Hello.
Josué:And Lara Taylor.
Lara:Hey. Link,
Josué:what's the topic this week?
Link:We're gonna talk about queer films from the nineties and also parentheses 2000 depending on how you count it. Because I wanna talk about but I'm a cheerleader, and that has both '99 and 2000 listed as its release year. So
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Why? That's not the that's not the topic. It doesn't matter. We'll we'll include it.
Lara:That's the whole episode right there. That's the
Josué:whole episode. That's it. Figuring that out.
Link:I just wanted to talk about but I'm a cheerleader and when specifically the date that it came out. Yeah. No. I it is well, I guess in in in Oregon, in Portland, it is still Pride Month. But I'm thinking about queer movies year round.
Link:That's not just a June thing.
Josué:Yeah.
Link:This talking with
Lara:some doesn't go away on July 1.
Link:It doesn't. Especially not in Portland, but also in my heart. But yeah, I've just been talking about queer films with some some friends online and talking about some of my my favorites from when I was younger. And talking about some classic films that show up on all the you know, BuzzFeed, best queer films of the hundred years or whatever. You know, the classic ones that show up on a lot of lists and the ones that I've seen and which ones I hadn't.
Link:And so I started talking to you guys about that. And Mark is not here tonight. But he did also watch queer movies. I was very excited that he did that. That was fun.
Link:But yeah, I just wanted to talk about that that stuff with you guys and sort of meditate on the way that those kinds of stories have changed since you know, without Mark we are leaning older that we were definitely all alive for all of these movies to come out. So it'll be a little bit of a different perspective. But I'm interested to just sort of talk about that with you guys.
Josué:My first question, what is a queer movie?
Link:That's a great question.
Lara:That's why I always loves to like, object like make make everything objective.
Josué:What are we talking about here? You know, I mean, I need I need a clear definition.
Link:So there's go. Like, I don't have it in front of me. I could pull it up if you want. There is like a, a like academic definition for when you are looking at like, specifically film studies and talking about queer films in in that lens, but more colloquially colloquially that we will probably be using it as is just films that are either made by queer people or are about queer people or have some queer people featuring in it.
Josué:Gotcha. Yeah. And the reason why I'm asking the question is, like, how are we defining queer in in this in this sense? Because, like, what is the scope of it as well?
Lara:That's difficult because queer people both love and hate labels, Moswe.
Josué:I know. I know. This is this is this is exactly why I'm bringing up the question. I know we have a set list of movies. Right?
Josué:But I'm like, well, well, what else would, you know, what counts?
Link:And and we pulled up Wikipedia has a page that lists, you know, queer films by year. And it I don't always agree with what they have decided to count as a queer film or not. Okay. So it is not a set definition. There is wiggle room.
Link:As you know, it is common in especially older works where, you know, especially if we're talking about pre 50 stuff in the Hays Code is like it all had to be subliminal implicit messaging. And so a lot of it is the work of the viewer engaging with it is the the where the queerness comes out is in that act of of sort of deciphering into queerness. As compared to, you know, a movie that comes out today is like, it's about a lesbian. It's made by lesbian. It's about a lesbian is clear.
Link:Yeah. But yeah, so it's, you know, the LGBTQIA plus 2s, which I guess, I usually goes in the front. I am looping it around. It's a aurora borers of queerness.
Josué:Alright, we'll get started which which which movie do you want to start with?
Link:Well, I decided to watch a couple of films that I hadn't seen before. And so earlier today, I watched Paris is Burning, which is a 1990 or 1991 documentary about ballroom culture in Harlem, New York, New York City. And then a couple of days ago, I watched The Watermelon Woman, which is a mockumentary. It is about a black lesbian aspiring filmmaker who is trying to decide what she wants to make her film on. She decides she wants to learn about this, actress from the thirties, this black woman actress who was only, named on the the film as the watermelon woman.
Link:She didn't get a real name and so it was her trying to figure it all out. It is a fictionalized story, but it has that sort of like deep truth to it. Also, I started it is very, you know, just sort of cute and and funny, like light jokes. I was like, I wonder why this has the like NC rating. That's weird.
Link:Really intense lesbian sex scene right in the middle. I was like, oh, boy. Great movie. But those those were two that I hadn't I hadn't seen before. Very informative.
Link:I really enjoyed it. So are there some that you guys have watched recently or you feel more familiar with?
Lara:Recently, no. The funny thing is I look at a list of things and I'm like, there are some that I should have watched in my youth and did not. I still haven't watched, but I'm a cheerleader. Because I couldn't because Nina was on vacation and I can't I was not allowed to watch it without her for my first time because I haven't watched it.
Link:I'm heartbroken. But the cheerleader is my favorite one.
Lara:But, like, looking at the list on Wikipedia, there's a bunch of them. I'm like, oh, I guess that does count as a queer movie. Like, one of my favorite movies when I was young was, like, Cruel Intentions, which is a really fucked up movie. And I'm like, wait. How is that?
Lara:Oh, right. Because the girls kiss. Got it.
Link:Mhmm.
Lara:But I have seen a lot of the older movies. I just haven't seen them in a while and haven't thought about them in a while until now. Like, the birdcage. Love that one.
Link:Yeah. Do you do you guys were you're a tiny bit older than me. Do you I remember seeing these movies in like the 2000s. I didn't watch any of these movies in the 90s when they came out. Do you remember if you guys did or also early 2000s?
Lara:I think I saw to Wong Fu when it came out. Like not in theaters, but like as soon as it came out and I could get it at Blockbuster, Blockbuster was the place to go. In N Out, I saw in theaters actually when that
Link:was Do you remember what that was like? Did you go with your parents?
Lara:No. It was Your siblings? It was playing at the theater down the street. So my friend and I got to go walk down and go go see it. And that was a lot of fun.
Lara:That was a time where I was figuring out I was queer. I can't remember. So when did did In N Out come out?
Link:I wanna say '98.
Lara:So, yeah, I had fig I, like, I hadn't come out to most people other than my small friend group. And so my friends that we would play Vampire the Masquerade and stuff, and my friend who was very, very flamboyantly gay said, let's go see this movie. And we went to go see it. And that's pretty much what I human memory is garbage. That's what I remember of going to see the movie with my friend and having a good time, but, like, also not necessarily having the context because that movie was geared for adults, right, in the writing.
Lara:So
Josué:Yeah. I think I did watch these when they came out. I don't think I watched any of them in theaters. Pretty sure I watched them all at home. And my father is very conservative, was way more conservative.
Josué:That might come up again later. And so my mom was not. And so I'm pretty sure that most of these are with my mom, because if anything came up with when watching with my dad, he would probably turn it off or or stop the movie. I have, like, vague memories of of that, but like not specific movies. I just remember that happening.
Josué:And, yeah, I did watch I did watch those in the 90s. I know when you brought up the list, was like, oh, I've seen half of those movies when I was a child. A very long time ago. But I did watch the I did watch But I'm a Cheerleader. Now, never watched it before.
Josué:But it's interesting because I'd seen clips of it and memes about it everywhere. So I like, oh, finally, I wanna watch this entirely own movie forever.
Link:So what did you what did you think?
Josué:I was I I thought it was hell. I thought it was very funny. I thought it was It's so
Lara:nice Natasha Lyon, which is why I'm so I'm like, how have I not seen this yet?
Josué:RuPaul is hilarious. I mean, the whole movie is just very, very I think it's so well done because it's it's like, it almost covers it covers a large scope of homophobia and just general stupidity. Right. So then so for people look at it from every side,
Link:Yeah. So for people who don't know, but I'm a cheerleader is about a high school girl cheerleader, whose parents and friends pull her aside for an intervention to tell her that one, she's gay and two, she's going to a conversion camp. And it is potentially that concept very bleak, but this is fully a comedy movie. It is very funny. It touches on a bunch of different queer use experiences and the way the horrible ways that people get treated.
Link:But it does it in a very fun way and visually the language of the the film's visuals are so beautiful. It is such a treat to watch.
Josué:Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. I really enjoyed it. It was just touches on a lot of different pieces of it. I think I think it's definitely whenever we talk about, like, what media that we can reference, I think this one is, like, a good starting point.
Josué:It's like, oh, you don't wanna talk about gay experience and and from from multiple perspectives. Let's just check that out and let me know what you think. It's it was good. It was a lot of fun.
Lara:Yeah. Maybe it's gonna Nina's home. So maybe it's gonna have to be date night this week.
Josué:It's good. It's funny. It's funny. Like, I mean, even the way
Link:genie wish for it.
Josué:I mean, just the way that the movie sets the tone. Right? It's like she's a cheerleader, and then there's just, like, slow motion view of, like, another cheerleader's breast just, like, jumping up and down. Like, she's just so distracted.
Link:They they do during the the intervention. She's like, but everybody thinks women are beautiful. Like, you go and stand in in line at the grocery store and all of the magazines have gorgeous women on the covers like everybody likes that person being all like, yeah, but everybody else doesn't think about them the way you do. She's just like, but I think I think there's several moments that very, really capture like, the absurdity of that experience of realizing that reframing of of when you are sort of coming to your own understanding of your own queerness of like, oh, is like there could be some really truly absurd things that you look back on you go wowie that's clown shoes. This movie is like yeah, and that's a thing that we have in common.
Josué:And it's I think the way I saw it also was like, the writers sat down and were like, we need, we need every flavor. Like we need every flavor of experience. And also, let's do the parents in there and throw different perspectives from the different parents. And let's have the conversion camp people and let's have an anti conversion camp camp nearby. It's great.
Josué:It's great. It's really good. So, yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you recommended that one. And also, again, that I finally saw it. I know what the I get the memes now.
Josué:It's good. It's good.
Link:Yeah. It's a really
Josué:good Like, again, like, you're just watching that one alone. I get I see it as potentially valuable for people who haven't seen it. Right? Like, I can see how it can be really helpful to to facilitate some conversations. But this, but this is because it's very, it's lighthearted, and everything is in your face.
Josué:There's nothing. There's no coding. There's no right, there's no nothing is subversive, nothing is hinted at, like, it's all in your face. So it's very, it's very good. But like, so so in general, what what do you feel is the importance and the value of, like, queer films, in general, right?
Josué:Like, why are we celebrating them and critiquing their effects to an extent?
Link:Well, I think, again, in the context of like, the history of film, and the way that queer representation and queer participation in the art form itself has been often completely destroyed, hidden, fussicated, what have you. And so really seeing, you know, the ways that after the Hays Code got canceled and then, you know, ex exploitation films in the seventies and then sort of shifting into the nineties having this real, like, tolerance. I remember lots of like, it's all about tolerance in the 90s. I remember being a kid and being like, wow, people are this seems important. People keep talking about it.
Link:And sort of watching that in the way that the that films are, you know, they became more mainstream, more widely accessible and released to larger audiences so that more not queer people were engaging with this with these stories. And so a lot of them are very focused on, like, we have to tell the story of a queer experience that can be accepted and broadly relatable and so that we can connect with the cis heteros, so that they will see that we're people just like them. So a lot of the stories are very focused on that idea of like, we're not so different, are we? We have the same kinds of problems. And so it's very interesting to see, or the other side of that being fully focused on like very specifically like getting hate crimes.
Link:And so it's very interesting to see how that has changed, know, talking about that scene with all of the parents in But I'm a Cheerleader and comparing that to, we talked about Dead End Paranormal Park, their, trans character having, that dinner with his parents and the and the, confrontation about like, you didn't stand up for me when my grandmother was being transphobic, and how that compares to the the family conversation in this movie in the nineties. And they're both comedies. Right? Obviously, one is animated and a little bit more focused towards like younger people. But again, that same sort of thing is like seeing the ways that the stories have gone from being told like, about a queer person.
Link:Like, Paris is Burning is a documentary about gay men and trans people and the umbrella that exists across that. But it is a film by a white woman director. And so the way that race is treated in that movie is very different. And the way that the camera embodies a white, not gay person looking into this world as an outsider. It really changes the dynamic when you have like in the watermelon woman, a queer woman is holding the camera and telling her own story.
Link:And so, you know, those movies came out six years apart. And one's a real documentary, and one's a mockumentary. But the way that the camera is used and the way that the story is told is very distinct. Not in small part to because of the identities of the people who are making it.
Josué:Is the mockumentary respectful?
Link:Yes.
Josué:Okay. Okay. And I'm thinking about that because I think But I'm a Cheerleader is respectful of the topic Mhmm. And the experiences that it's representing. Yes.
Josué:And I don't remember In N Out. I honestly don't remember the movie because human memory is garbage. But I'm thinking of, and I'm not sure about In N Out, but definitely the birdcage and other movies. And we're talking about the 90s primarily, So like, come back in time with us, right? It was a very different time.
Link:I didn't
Josué:even bring
Link:it up, but, yeah, the the AIDS impact on film
Lara:I was I was gonna say We'll circle back.
Josué:Well, before
Lara:because I remember our horror or thrillers and, like, and dramas and some good there and some problematic. On this list is one I did watch recently, and that's Silence of the Lambs. And it's not the best queer representation ever. But also, Philadelphia is one movie that I I watched a lot of times as a kid, and that one focuses very strongly on the story of this couple and AIDS, and that was a big thing. But the like like I said, less the comedies, I was big into, and I still am, the the dramas and the and the thriller movies.
Lara:What I was gonna talk about is A League of Their Own, very coded back in the nineties, but was meant to be a queer story even though the the creators didn't want it that way. Rosie O'Donnell very much played her character as queer. And they updated it with the show that only got well, it got a second season agreement and then taken away.
Link:I'm still mad about it.
Lara:I'm so mad. But it's one of those things when the the queer people are holding the camera and are acting in in the in the movie or the show, the authenticity comes in a little more. But definitely, A League of Their Own was even though not outwardly queer to people who weren't looking for it. Definitely formative in my experiences as a young queer person. So and figuring out being queer.
Lara:Also, my love of baseball and women playing baseball.
Josué:Okay. Well, check me on any of this if I'm if I if I'm wrong. But I feel like Philadelphia again, I also don't remember Philadelphia. But I I get the sense that Philadelphia was because of the time. Like, I think I it won Best Picture that year.
Josué:Know it was nominated for Right? The But I feel like it was a fetishization. Right? More than, like, I don't know if the food if the movie was good. Right?
Josué:But it was like, oh, AIDS is such an important topic. And, oh, the gays, we got to talk about the gays, right? Like, it's such a it's such a, like, oh, their plight or or like that kind of attitude. And then on the comedy side, I'm thinking, like, people are laughing, like a lot of people are laughing at the gay characters, like they're for a comedic effect. That's why I was asking, like, are these movies respectful?
Josué:Like, though the mockumentary that you said, because I can think of a lot of them that
Link:it's, you
Josué:know, if they were respectful, people were laughing at them, and not making
Link:it's I'm using the term mockumentary not as like it's a joke comedy it is it is in fact she is making a documentary but the the watermelon woman that she's making the documentary on is fictional. That is the that's the the mock you part is that it's not based on a real historical figure, but it is based in real history in that one. Early cinema black actors were not given titles or their names in films and that black filmmakers today historians and anybody interested in that stuff who wants to learn about it, a lot of the information is just gone. Nobody kept it or it was never saved in the first place. And so there's a lot of that idea both in black history and in queer history of like this stuff is either intentionally hid or lost.
Link:And so we, as the people need to do our part to maintain it and continue it and keep telling these stories because they are important. They are meaningful. And so that that's sort of the thing is like the like I said before, it's like, it is it is a fictional story, but it is very much speaking to a very deep truth.
Lara:Plus, it's got a
Link:hot lesbian sex scene in it. If that's not respectful, I don't know what to tell you.
Josué:Okay, so I was I was one so I decided to go the animation and anime route for for today. And one thing that I had not thought about really was that, I know that now there it's very popular that there's, like, girl love and boy love anime. But I saw it described as like, oh, a lot of, like, straight women love boy love anime. Right? Because it's just like this, again, a fetishization of this, they're not necessarily good representation of queer characters or experiences.
Josué:It's very much like fantasy. And so, again, like, I haven't watched the documentary, and I'm just thinking back. Right? But if you're telling me that it's, like, it's straight, you know, it's it's it's straight people making a movie in the in the nineties, which, like, you know, b movies were a whole thing. Right?
Josué:Like, like Yep. You know, and so, like, oh, you have a lesbian scene. Like, that's there. That's that's just there for for the straight guys to enjoy. Right?
Josué:It's like, many how many topless women can we get on
Link:the scene? Of The Watermelon Woman is it is directed by and starring Cheryl. And so she it's it really was like, I'm making a movie and I am going to put a sex scene in it for me. Everyone's like, well, you're the director. Yeah, of course.
Lara:I know.
Josué:Okay. But I again, I I just those are the things that I'm thinking about.
Link:Yeah. Know. Totally true. There I mean, we could think of a a million and a half examples of, you know, queer representation that was played as a joke. Oh.
Lara:Cruel intentions
Link:is one
Lara:those. Cruel is definitely one like, so the boyfriends would go with the straight girls to go watch the movie like, yep. Yeah. Yep.
Josué:So so was was cruel intentions in in the nineties?
Link:Think that was '99. Okay.
Josué:Yeah. So so
Link:don't forget about the matrix your favorite. That's absolutely a queer movie from the 90s. And if you've seen bound also by the Wachowskis beautiful, beautiful pairing those two movies.
Josué:I didn't see bound. I didn't rewatch it now. So like, I don't remember anything about it either.
Link:Down also has a great lesbian sex scene.
Lara:A little a little
Link:less explicit. But yeah, Bound. It's very funny to talk about queer films in the 90s and be like, yes, Bound and The Matrix are such excellent examples because when they came out is by the Wachowski brothers. And so now it's like, oh, they were queer in the context of then they were explicitly queer. And now it's like they're triple they're queer cubed.
Josué:Okay. Well, so so this is this this is good. This goes back to my Cruel Intentions question. And if if not, we can we can steer away from this. But Cruel Intentions has it's not a full threesome, but, know, it's like it's like it's as far as they could take it, I think, in in a movie like that.
Josué:And in sense eight, also by the Wachowskis, there is it is much more explicitly polyamorous than cruel intentions or most most anything else out there outside of porn. And would does, like, ethical non monogamy, polyamory, like different types of relationships represented in media, would that fall under queer films as well?
Link:I would include that under queer films because I see polyamory as part of my queer identity, but there would be French cases in which that wouldn't be true. Right.
Josué:Yeah, yeah.
Link:I think I think generally speaking, if if a film is going to include some sort of non monogamy element to it, there is always also a queer element in it in that the characters themselves have some sort of constraint in that they feel that they will be judged by others And other ways that it relates relates back to the queer experience. But yeah, more more case by case, I guess. But
Josué:yeah, yeah,
Link:yeah.
Josué:That's why I was asking about the scope earlier. Because it's, again, like, it's important to show that there's one way to do things that can be
Link:absolutely. And the things that would have made a movie get tagged as a queer movie in the nineties coming out in the nineties is very different than movies coming out in 2024. Yeah.
Lara:Yeah.
Josué:So
Link:I I'm I'm immediately thinking about Disney having the the first gay character in a Disney movie every two and a half years. And every time it's like that was that it? And they're like, next year, the first ever gay character. And so it's like, it's very clearly socially, we are not letting that slide. We're not like, that doesn't count as queer rep.
Link:But if it had happened in the nineties, absolutely. They were like, holy shit. There's a queer in a Disney movie.
Josué:So I watched not the series, but the movie of Utena. So Adolescence of of Utena, which is an anime movie. And it's on all the the queer anime lists. Are you familiar with this with this show? It's u t e n a.
Link:Like the like the sword lesbians?
Josué:Yes. Oh,
Link:yeah. Okay. Yes. I watched that. It's great.
Link:Love it.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah.
Link:Very clear.
Josué:It's very clear in every sense of the word throughout the movie. But also, I finished watching it earlier today, and the movie ends with two fully naked women kissing, driving away from an oppressive government out into the sunset. I'm like, American animation is very far from that still. Still. And that was that was late nineties.
Josué:The series itself, I don't think that particular scene did not happen in the series. So this was the movie version. And I don't know that that movie is considered maybe in The States, it would be considered adult animation, but I don't think that in Japan, it would be. I think it's just a movie. And that one that one was good.
Josué:That was interesting. And then and then of course,
Link:reviewed I seen the movie, but I watched I watched the show Revolutionary Girl, Lutena.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah, the movie is called Adolescence of Lutena. And it is it's like a summarization retelling tracks.
Link:That makes sense.
Josué:Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you sometimes that's a you don't have time to watch
Link:a traditional anime is to turn your 26 episode season into an hour and a half movie.
Josué:Not only is it more it's like it's condensed and gayer than
Link:Well, yeah, when it gets condensed, you know, concentrated.
Josué:And then of course, the the one that was formative for a lot of people, Sailor Moon.
Lara:Yes.
Josué:Doesn't matter how much they tried to cover it in The States.
Lara:Cousins. That just is gross. Okay.
Josué:For people who don't know these, there were characters that were explicitly lesbians in the in the original anime version of Sailor Moon. And when they brought it to The States, they did all sorts of stuff. They cut it, they changed names and relationships. And so they have this couple where they embrace themselves often and are very, very close. And they're supposedly cousins.
Josué:They're cousins and one
Lara:of them gets confused for a boy quite often. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Josué:That's that's like a whole other thing as well that in in anime and I don't know Japanese culture.
Link:It is. I mean, I was just thinking, like, the the the gender relationships in Japan are like, obviously still patriarchy, but it is a different relationship than
Josué:in in anime, because I get the feeling again, I'm not an expert in Japanese culture, but I feel like Japanese real life culture is very is not as open. But in animation, it's like almost anything goes. And it is very common to have characters that present entirely female or present entirely male, and then are are they're telling you that they are, you know, a female presenting character who's like, oh, no. Male and my name is Bob, you know, and vice versa. You know, and and and a male voice with a female body.
Josué:And it's just something and the way they dress, you know, is not you know, is is a is a gender different than they're presenting or that they identify as. And I think that that is that is very common, actually, in anime. And in the nineties as well, like, it was just it was just there. So, again, very it's something that's very common. So I was yeah.
Josué:I think I saw something that was, you know, was talking about how great Steven Universe within animation, you know, had brought things and then but I had just watched all this stuff about anime. And I was like, yeah. I mean, Steven Universe is great. But like, in terms of, of like, they a lot of stuff has been done in That's
Link:so funny because Rebecca Sugar themselves has stated many times how inspired by anime Steven Universe has been so it is very much a direct line there. Yeah, like if you're thinking Steven Universe thing, you know, anime. Thank you, anime. You're on thin ice.
Josué:I mean, how influential it is I get I'll bring in my dad again. My, my father, very conservative, less conservative now than he was. So now because we do see gay characters in, like, much, much more frequently. So my dad wants to watch a bunch of he likes to watch action stuff. And in the nineties and February, he probably still would have stopped a movie if there was a gay relationship, if two men kissed, two women kissed, if he saw anything that he didn't that he didn't like.
Josué:Now, sometimes he'll tell me, I'm like, oh, you watched this thing? And I'm like, just waiting for it. And he's like, no. It was great. Did I mention it?
Josué:Right? Like, it's almost like, oh, no. It's just oh, no. It's fair.
Link:It's because Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To a point that it doesn't bother him anymore.
Josué:Yeah.
Lara:Well Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of times, I think some of that is the difference in the storytelling we've gotten from the nineties to now. I mean, we still get a lot of coming out stories and focusing on, like, the queer characters now. But I think more often than not, they are just they're there, and they belong there.
Lara:And it's just part of the story without being the focus of everything.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so now,
Lara:you It's not that they've got a gay what except, you know, when it's Disney and it's the first gay character every time.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to the first gay character ever in a Disney Yeah.
Link:It's gonna be great. Hey.
Lara:Acolytes has gay moms. Okay. So
Link:And nobody is complaining about that show.
Josué:Nobody at all. That might be the one complaint I haven't heard about the
Lara:show. Alright.
Link:That's where we're
Josué:at now. Like, it's it's so normalized
Lara:right now. That's not
Josué:what we're
Lara:gonna continue. That no. That's that's the main complaint I see about that show.
Josué:I'm gonna be serious. I've I haven't seen anybody. Like, of all the commentary and complaints I've seen, that is not has not come up once. And I'm not I'm not even like, I'm not exaggerating. Yeah.
Lara:I I've seen a lot of it.
Josué:Our algorithms are obviously different. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Lara:Yeah. We're also on different social media than each other. Like, I'm on Facebook.
Josué:Ew. Mhmm. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be dudgy. Yeah.
Josué:That makes sense, though. That you that makes sense. Yeah. No. I don't I don't see that.
Lara:Yeah.
Josué:But yes, that is that is true in in the acolyte. So yeah, my my dad, again, it's because it has I think I think Asian TV also has something to do with it. Like, watches more like, he started watching K dramas and Japanese dramas and stuff because they tend to be more fantastical than than Western media. And so he's getting exposed left and right to a lot of different things where, again, my dad very conservative and very ignorant about a lot of stuff. Don't know, five years ago, I would still be, you know, to him, everything was Chinese.
Josué:I'd be like, no, dad, you're watching a Korean drama. No, dad, that's a Japanese movie. You know, and now he knows the difference. And he he he gets it, and there's an appreciation there as well. But it's because, you know, it's also in the genres that he enjoys more.
Link:Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Queer sci fi queer fantasy. You know, like my daughter was turned into a chicken nugget.
Link:You gotta have a couple of queers. Yeah. I'm just, you know, talking about how I didn't I didn't see any of these 90 movies in the 90s. But I do remember I watched the birdcage. Probably as a young teen, like twelve thirteen fourteen.
Link:I don't really remember very much about it except that I deeply love Robin Williams and that that's just a true statement unrelated to queer media. But I did watch to Wong Fu Thanks for Everything Julie Newmar In that same timeframe that I also got into the blade movies. Was very into Wesley Snipes. I thought he was so cool. Seeing those two films, not together, but you know, close together.
Link:Was it was it was sort of interesting in the way that it sort of framed my conception of queerness out in the world. Because like, contextually, my grandfather's sister, lesbian and my entire life had a long term partner who I loved. And so but nobody ever like I never heard any of them say the word lesbian that was, that was not a word that I learned from my family. But very much sort of informing the way that I saw the world is like, well, you know, maybe I don't I don't know, a transvestite, cross dresser, a queer person right next to me in my town. But you know, any day now someone could come in in a beautiful Corvette with their beautiful friends and their long waving scarves in the winds and change the change the whole town for the better.
Link:Now that could happen any day. Yeah. So definitely interesting the way that you know, that movie was like a big deal for a lot of audiences seeing it for the first time. And for me, it was very much like, yeah, it's normal, because it's it's a movie, and therefore it's part of normal culture.
Josué:Yeah.
Link:Yes, very, very interesting to look back on that. I should I should rewatch to Wong Fu again, more recently.
Josué:I want to also because, again, to give you more of that. I was there in the 90s. '19. Yes. I think and this is this is from my family's perspective.
Josué:Like, talked about my dad. From my mom's perspective, I think that she viewed the birdcage and to Wong Fu the same way that she viewed Mrs. Doubtfire. Right? In the sense that like, there's these men who are playing a role.
Josué:Right. And I find it amusing.
Link:It's played as that is the joke.
Josué:Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, that's like, I love the way he plays a woman. I love the way you know, Patrick Swayze looks with makeup on or, you know, or etc. Or it's like it's like that kind of
Link:kind of thing
Josué:where and and so in Spanish version of white chicks? I don't I've never I've never brought
Link:myself to my like 02/2001, 02/2002. It's not that far
Josué:off. I know. So so like with the birdcage, my mom loved the birdcage. And I was thinking of like, what's his name? Steven Martin Short, and father of the bride and right, like, characters like that.
Lara:The butt of the joke. Yeah.
Josué:Right, right. Yeah. They're like, oh, but but my mom loved those characters. But she didn't love them. Like she didn't appreciate them other than this is a wild and crazy character.
Josué:And so in Spanish, it's like, if you wanted to refer to somebody who is gay in a derogatory sense, you could say you would use the word crazy, but in the feminine. So you would say, loka, right? As like to refer to an effeminate man, or a or or a gay man. And so she would say it and Spanish has this thing that I hate. You know,
Lara:like That that puts Ricky Martin's song into a whole new perspective for me.
Josué:Absolutely. You have no idea what that what what what that was like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:Wow. Because in in Spanish, that was a thing. But in English, people were just like, oh, it's so funny. But in Spanish, people were making fun of him because, oh, look, he's saying that he's like, this this crazy gay person. Yeah.
Josué:And so, like, my And mom
Lara:she was.
Josué:And so my mom, she and and again, this is something that happened in Spanish. Like like like, they'll call you intricacies of the language. Right? But that, like, your family will endearingly call you a fatty, right, by using, like, the diminutive version of a word. And it's not a nice thing, but they don't necessarily mean it.
Josué:Like, it's it's it's terrible. And also
Link:through the, the intimacy of familiarity.
Josué:It's, it's terrible. Again, it's, you're right. But also, there's something cultural about it. And when it when it like, there's a part of it that doesn't translate. And and so that word loca.
Josué:Right? So my mom would be like, oh, you know, she was just like but she would say with, like she was so excited and she loved them. And she's like, oh, yeah. Let's watch it again, you know, because it was so fun. But she doesn't she didn't see them as real people.
Josué:Like, if she saw somebody like that in real life, she would she wouldn't take them seriously. But she did enjoy the characters. Mhmm. And I don't think that that was I think that that kind of attitude was much more prevalent in the 90s. Absolutely.
Josué:And you would probably be pitching a movie as like, it's got this hilarious gay character. It's like, oh, I love it. Gay is in right now. Do it.
Link:Right? It sort of circles back into that idea of like, tolerance was very much the the push and now it is more about acceptance. Make the distinction in there where you will by the the idea of being like, look, having a gay guy come in and make a goof like that's fun and funny isn't that's okay, right? We can tolerate that everybody and everybody's like, yeah, okay, I guess. And then it's like now it's like, that's not cool.
Link:That's not cool to just bring in the queer character just for the joke. I don't like that. I don't accept that. I won't tolerate.
Lara:Which is very different from Billy Eichner's movie that came out in the last, what, couple years, Bros. I mean, it was a comedy. There was funny, and the gays were part of the joke. And most of they were trying to make the film appeal to the straights and the gays. And I there were some jokes that I think would go over a lot of straight people's heads.
Lara:And yeah. I don't know. The movie didn't do so well. I thought it was funny.
Josué:So in terms of like, how how do you see that we've we've it has changed in movies? Where how do you like, what is a gay character? And I mean, in the nineties, I think they either had to explicitly they had to be, right, like, eccentric and and, like, you know, like a character like in the like like we're just talking about, or they had to have a sex scene or something. Right? Like, there had to be something super explicit.
Josué:I feel like now we're much better at that. A character can be gay and just be gay and not have to sleep with somebody to prove that they're gay. How do you see that having changed over time or or not?
Link:I definitely think there there have been some changes. But I do I do think that one of the biggest differences is less focused on specifically white gay men, that we're getting to see more varieties of the queer experience that isn't focused on white men. That was true in the nineties, You know, with
Josué:black and brown queers in particular were were even funnier, right? I think like they were they were explicitly if there was one there, was obviously
Link:a joke. Fulfilled two roles, right? They got they got to be the two types of token. Yeah. But yeah, I do I do think you know, we still see a lot of focus on coming out stories.
Link:And the relationship between queerness and experiencing violence. But I do think that it is it is a broader area that more commercial movies are allowed to play in now before they start getting pushed back about showing anything gay at all.
Lara:Yeah. I think about I can't even remember the names of what different, like, worlds are now, but the more recent Star Trek movies and making Sulu gay. And it was just a thing. He held the sand with his husband, gave him a hug and kiss, and that was it. That's a that's a small thing, but it's they're just there, not necessarily having to come out and and be a big deal.
Lara:Although, the fan base made it a big deal.
Josué:But okay. Okay. So that that's a good that's a good example of in the original. Right? I think I've heard George gay.
Josué:I think I've heard George the k say, right, like, to him, Zulu was gay, but they just didn't have relationships. Right? Like like, it just never happened. So you never saw it. You just get to see it in the Abrams movies because you get to see a little more like you see them on Earth where you were only see that in the show.
Josué:And I I didn't there's a lot of films or I was reading about Gargoyles, the TV show. It's like ten years after the show is done. He's like, you know, the creator is like, oh, yeah. Like, these three characters on the show were gay. You know?
Josué:Love that. Right? It's a
Link:You didn't know. We never showed it.
Josué:You never did it. Know,
Link:whole time.
Josué:He was like, I knew the second year that this character was gay for sure. And then these are the characters. Okay. We couldn't do anything on the show, you know, about that. But they were, you know?
Josué:So it's like, that's like with Zulu Ray, it's like, oh, no. He was always gay. He just he just there was nothing. There's nothing to we never brought it up.
Lara:Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:But But do those count?
Lara:Yeah. That's a they I'd say they count, but a lot of people wouldn't recognize that, right, from watching the original stuff unless they were looking for it like a lot of queer people were. I I watch a lot of procedurals. I have a new one on my list that is nine one one. There's, like, queer characters on that show.
Lara:And, like, it's, again, less a focus on the coming out stories. Earlier in, the Grey's Anatomy stuff, I mean, that show's been on, what, twenty damn years now. Like, they they focused on that. Now it's just like, oh, somebody's got a wife or they're dating this person or, like, they just drop a they them pronoun here and there. Like, it's not as big of a production about it.
Lara:Even Disney's last two like, in the movies themselves, not the the lead up, but Disney's last two, like, first gay characters, like the one the ones in Lightyear and Strange World, like, it wasn't that big of a thing. It just was. And you see this love story in Lightyear progress over the years and it's beautiful, but it's not like, oh my gosh, there's queer people and they're like, the fan base did that and the and they Disney themselves made a big deal. Oh, it's the first queer character and what but the movie itself, yeah. The creators Mhmm.
Lara:Mhmm. Yeah. So yeah. It's it the I think that's the direction I see things going that, like, we're not the exception anymore. So that's nice.
Lara:Any
Josué:other movies you wanted to bring up?
Link:I I last month, I watched Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert for the first time, which is similar to to Wong Fu. Thanks for everything, Julie Newmar in adventure until two
Josué:weeks ago, they were the same
Link:movie. Yeah. Great, great double feature with Mad Mad Max, Fury Road. Just in case you were wondering, was a fantastic double feature to watch. Love it.
Link:But I do I do, you know, having watched Paris is burning earlier today, that is very much on the forefront of my mind and sort of thinking about the ways in which as queerness has become more acceptable in film and TV is also a rise in like the commercialization of queerness. And something that they talked about, several of the people interviewed in Paris is burning, we're talking about is like the ballroom scene culture and its relationship to like proximity to like whiteness and wealth and you know, having their their dancing and performance categories be like realness, which is, you know, the passing as whatever gender or passing as straight. And very interesting to think about the ways in which as that has become as queerness has become more normalized in film, it is also like an interesting relationship in the ways in which queerness is often framed as like, antagonistic to, like, it is an opposing force of straightness and heteronormativity, and less on the ways in which it is expansive. And it isn't like, always just like I'm trying I'm trying to pass a lot of the times it is it is, you know, queer pride, especially is about the ways in which like queerness is intentionally outside of the norms, that it is an art form of expression and its weirdness and not being commercial is a main part of that art form.
Link:And it is very interesting to see the ways in which that has that has changed and we and the ways that I like queer art gets talked about, you know, both, you know, traditionally within community, but more broadly, with the rest of the world. Getting to have opinions and stuff is very interesting.
Josué:Yeah. One last thing I just thought of that I don't think we've covered is in the nineties, were there any trans actors, like in in mainstream movies or or were there trans stories in the 90s? Because now, that's that's not uncommon. People still make a big deal
Link:out of it. I don't have an answer. I think the answer is yes, that there were trans actors in the nineties just because there are always trans people. And a lot of the times, just don't know. I don't I don't have a specific answer for that.
Lara:But it's still fairly common. And people are getting actors are getting more pushback now for, like, cis people playing trans people, and that was definitely a thing a big thing in the nineties as well. Yeah. In I mean, I I mentioned one of the worst trans representations.
Link:Has silence
Lara:In silence of the
Josué:lamps.
Link:Yeah. It's I mean, it's up there. I would say, I think Sleepaway Camp is the is the slasher movie that has a real oof trans reveal in the last act. Anyways, not from I don't think that's from the nineties. I'm not talking about it.
Lara:Oh, Ace Ventura pet detective. Oh, another bad one.
Link:That's a bad that's
Lara:a bad That's a bad one too. So yeah.
Josué:Mhmm. Don't remember what happens in.
Lara:That's the one where he finds out that he's been he that he kissed a woman who is trans and goes and washes his mouth out and pukes and all it was not fun.
Josué:Pretty
Link:gross. More specifically about trans trans characters in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, they do specify that one of one of the people is a trans woman versus another character is like, I'm just flamboyant, I love to dress up. So I do I do think that that was an important distinction to make within, you know, more generally, but also within the film itself says like these, this is a group of queer people traveling together, and they're not all the same as each other. Have like their own individual experience. Allowing and allowing
Josué:for all that. Dry Queens, right? Yes. And to Wong Fu? Yeah.
Josué:That's cool.
Link:It's been a really long time since I watched to Wong Fu. I do think that they sort of imply that one of them is a trans woman. I could be wrong. It's been a long time.
Josué:Okay. Yeah, the 90s 90s were
Link:wild time
Josué:or something.
Link:Yeah. We didn't really we didn't really touch on the way that AIDS impacted all this, but it did. It impacted all of it. In in who who was alive and healthy enough to make stuff in the types of stories often being focused on Oh, that's Jimmy gay man and his boyfriend died of AIDS. And that that stuff.
Link:And also just in the way that the characters within the films are, you know, expressing discomfort and fear and and not just about, you know, AIDS itself, but more broadly, the cultural response and political response to AIDS and the way that impacted it definitely had a ripple effect into the films.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I was I was young enough during the nineties. I guess I I was a teenager, but I I was still not watching tons of movies necessarily, that weren't I don't know I don't know how many serious dramas or or anything I was watching that might touch on real world issues. And so I feel like I don't have that kind of a grasp.
Josué:But I do remember yeah. Like, there wasn't a Oh, yeah, no, this person is living with AIDS. Right? Like, that wasn't even I don't I'm pretty sure that that was a real experience in the 90s still, right? Where people were like, Well, no, no, you could survive.
Josué:You could you could still live. Right? You would have to take medication. And it was something that you, you had to, were just a part of your life now. Not everybody died from it.
Josué:But I feel like that wasn't the narrative. It was very much like gay, bad boogeyman type shit. Right? It was like it was very, very villainized in the 90s. Still, yeah.
Link:Fuck Ronald Reagan. Oh,
Josué:I don't know.
Lara:I didn't even I didn't even think about Chasing Amy was one of my favorite movies in the nineties, and how I reflect on that now as a lesbian and how fucked up that movie is that it's a straight man chasing a lesbian and, like, convincing her to date him, like, and fall in love with him. Wow. Nineties movies were were that some they they don't hold up.
Josué:Okay. So so one thing I can't remember his name, but I think I think this is it. There was an actor named Rock Hudson who died of AIDS in the eighties. And of course, had to be a famous white actor that people really liked for everybody to be like, oh, maybe we should do something about it. And then it became and then it became a cause, right, where the government started talking about it and started giving funding.
Josué:And people were were, then it became okay to to want to help people who had AIDS and prevent AIDS. Where before that, it was like, don't even talk about it. That's, that's not our problem. That's other people's problem. But movies had, you know, it was an actor who helped move that forward.
Josué:I think that's the right actor. Mentioned Reagan, and I know,
Lara:I'm pretty sure.
Josué:He influenced the government on that. Yeah, his passing. Okay. All right. Any any any anything else you want to cover?
Link:There's a lot of good queer movies out there. And a lot of weird and bad ones also check them out. They're fun.
Josué:The 90s.
Link:90s definitely watch but I'm a cheerleader. It is fun. A visual treat. It'll be you will laugh at least once I guarantee it.
Lara:How can you not? Natasha Lyons don't I
Link:can't be a lesbian. I'm a cheerleader.
Josué:The 90s still and I don't know. I don't know how different it is from now. But there there were, you know, people talked about B movies. These were movies that did not go to theaters. They were they were way more cheaply made.
Josué:And I know now we have Netflix and all these other streaming services, and lots of movies don't go to theaters, but it's different. It's very different.
Lara:It's different.
Josué:And so you got to see movies that a lot of horror films, a lot of action movies that that weren't very different from mainstream movies and the movies that were in theaters. And I grew up watching movies like that. My dad would just rent anything that was at the like he would go and just bring a stack every week.
Link:Whatever's in the new release section.
Josué:Yep. Whatever. American Ninja 17. It's like, yep, no, let's watch that. And so I'm curious, right?
Josué:Like how much how much queer media was able to come out during that time in in that space of the direct to video b movie, b b tier, you know, films that didn't get mainstream press, but we're still
Link:I think that I think just contextually to like what B movies are it like, yes, queerness exists in those spaces, like, ontologically, as being part of like, the fringe of the art form.
Josué:Yeah, but I'm saying like how much how much good stuff came out during that time.
Link:You know, I'm a big horror fan. A big part of that is because horror has always had a little bit more space to do weird stuff that mainstream movies cannot or will not touch on. And so there's, you know, not necessarily good representation, but there has been queer representation in horror, know, broadly a lot longer than other genres have allowed that kind of play space.
Josué:Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, our closing thoughts.
Link:You're definitely gonna watch but I'm a cheerleader with Nina
Lara:this week. I'm gonna watch Yeah. Mhmm. I gotta gotta do it.
Link:I'm gonna check-in. I'm gonna I'm gonna send you I'm gonna text I'm gonna text remind you.
Lara:Nina has also been saying I need to see this movie for a long time.
Link:You do. I honestly
Josué:has already seen it
Link:live tweet it. Yeah. I want to know your every thought.
Josué:Nina's already seen it.
Lara:Talks of my reactions. What the fuck?
Josué:Okay. Link, final thoughts.
Link:Watch But I'm a Cheerleader. It's a great movie.
Josué:That's great. I agree. That's also my my final recommendation. Alright. Let us know if you were around in the nineties.
Josué:Or if not, what is your appreciation for queer films from the from the nineties?
Lara:I
Link:am very interested to hear from people who like fully did not experience any of those movies until much, much later. Their their understanding relationship with it is very interesting.
Josué:I got one quick question before we go then. Like, which of these film well, I mean, already answered this. You kinda both answered it. Were there any other films from that time that were influential or helpful for you in understanding yourself, the world, your experience? And do you think people have it better now?
Josué:Yeah. Now than they do?
Link:Blade really helped me understand my queerness in a way that other movies in the nineties did not.
Josué:I saw I saw I saw a tic tac this week. Yeah. It's like, why do I love EDM? And it's like flashback to her as a kid just watching the opening scene of late.
Link:Watching the plate, the blood rave.
Josué:Yep.
Link:Just once, I wanna go to a blood rave. Come on.
Josué:I I still remember that was the first time I ever saw oral sex on a in a movie. And I'm pretty sure the I think if it weren't because it was like a a vampire superhero, my dad would have turned that off immediately.
Link:He's like, I don't like it. But I do want to know what happens to these vampires. I don't like this. But he is going to kick the shit out of somebody soon. Right?
Link:He's like, Yeah, he is. You're right.
Josué:He said Marvel at the beginning, I guess we'll give it a give it
Link:a high Okay, this is not from the 90s. This is from '56. Want to say some like it hot Marilyn Monroe movie also has cross dress dressing and then a queerness ending that I really enjoyed. But that was one I hadn't seen before. So I do think I'm reflecting on like the way that I saw a movie from 50s or 60s versus people, you know, teens now looking at movies from the 90s.
Link:Like what do they think about that stuff? Think it's very interesting. Very interesting
Josué:to Yeah. Yeah.
Lara:Queer history. But we never answered the question as to why But I'm a Cheerleader came out in '99 and February.
Link:I think it's a thing where, like, it did like a Sundance thing. Not maybe not specifically Sundance, but some sort of And then release. Theatrical release. Yeah. It's a nineties movie in my heart.
Link:And that's all that matters. Right? Because time is fake.
Lara:Listen, technically, 2000 is the last year of the nineties. I hate to break it down.
Josué:And the only you ask. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True.
Josué:It's true. I got nineties vibes from it. It feels nineties to me. Mhmm. Let us know what you think of what I'm a cheerleader after you watch it in in our community spaces, where you can find the links to it in our show notes.
Josué:More For geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good. I will be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
