Late Diagnosed Neurodivergence: When You See Yourself in the Algorithm
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. Today I'm joined by Link Keller.
Link:Hello.
Josué:Marc Cuiriz.
Marc:Yo.
Josué:And Lara Taylor.
Lara:Hey.
Josué:Understanding each other and ourselves through the media we care about. So today we're going to talk about seeing yourself in media, learning about yourself in the media we care about. Specifically, if you are on social media at all, you've probably seen some videos of people talking about learning that they had ADHD or autism or some other condition or traits from social media from seeing them online. I think we traditionally talked here about seeing it in movies and TV and how things are represented and relating. But seeing real people talk about some of this stuff, it's it's an experience.
Josué:So it was suggested that we talk today about that topic in general. So so, Link, how do you how do you wanna like, what angle do you wanna take exactly?
Link:I don't I don't know, man. I don't I don't have I don't I'm feeling I'm feeling very loosey goosey about this Okay. Topic unmoored. Okay. Okay.
Josué:So let's let's let's start with Marc who currently think his mouth is full. Let's try to get him in the middle of chewing. So he you just read a book, Marc, by Yes. Devin Price called Unmasking Autism. Few of us have read this book.
Josué:What what was what was that experience like for you?
Marc:It was honestly, it was quite an like, almost like an eye opening experience for me. Because I know I've always kind of known since I was a little kid that I was a little odd, a little different. But I don't think the idea of autism ever really crossed my mind. Was like, well, I'm not like that. And then kind of listening through the book and kind of hearing what doctor Price was saying in it, I was like, oh.
Marc:Like, it was like having me remember back to when I was a little kid and thinking things now that I'm older in a different lens, have a much better understanding of autism and how it all plays. And I know that there's also conversations of ADHD and just kind of being neurodivergent. And a lot of things started clicking. And to me, started to feel like I started hearing myself in some of the traits and things like that that were being covered during particular chapters. Just little anecdotes or stories that I was hearing, was like, Okay.
Marc:That kinda that kinda sounds like me. So like I said, it was it was really eye opening because it made me think of myself differently and view myself a little differently. And I mean, it also taught me a lot of things that I either had misconceptions or things I just didn't really I wasn't really aware of when it comes when it came to autism.
Josué:Yeah. Lara, I mean but I think you and I have talked probably for years now since you've been on the show the longest about how I I mean, I like to talk about symptoms and and traits versus, like, do you are you die like, is that your disorder? I I don't know. Do you meet all the criteria? I don't know.
Josué:But let's let's let's address the symptoms that just because the DSM is garbage and That's problem. All
Lara:of my clients. I'm treating what you bring to me, and I just give you the least impactful like, the the diagnosis is gonna give them the least barriers to things that has the most resonance for them because I have to because insurance.
Josué:Yeah, and symptoms and trade, right? Like, like, if something that has five different symptoms, there may be either treating one today, because that's the one that is clinically significant in this week, right? And that's, that's us looking at it from like, mental health industry perspective. Right. And I think a big part of the that's been interesting to me is seeing people say I'm self diagnosed with something which is again, not new, but seeing that online so so often is is cool that people are like, I don't even and there are many reasons why, including it's just so expensive, it's prohibitive.
Josué:But also, there are there may be negative consequences to getting a diagnosis.
Link:Until fairly recently, they just didn't offer testing for adults.
Lara:And some insurances still don't want to. Yeah, won't.
Josué:Yeah, yeah. So so so my position is that it's valid. And like, I like it when people bring that up. And so none of us are experts in neurodivergence, ADHD, autism. I'm not going to ask anybody to define it exactly because you will find different definitions in different places with different theories underlining it.
Josué:But I think this conversation where it's gonna go is that they're the people who work in the mental health field have identified many different traits. And now we have many advocates who are also talking about all of those traits. And so so right, like to explain to to be clear, the DSM is always gonna be the DSM is our diagnostic criteria and language, common language, but it takes years for things to get into the DSM. So just because it's not in the DSM doesn't mean that it's not backed by research, and then it's not seen by know, that it's not considered that it's not accepted. It's just with insurance and other stuff, it gets complicated.
Josué:So talking about all of this gets complicated. So I think it gets easier when we're like, oh, all of these things seem to be traits of ADHD or autism, AuDHD, neurodivergence. And, yeah, it has been an experience over the last few years seeing hearing these these traits come up. So because you brought this up, Marc, I I will start I'll put you on the spot first again.
Marc:Oh, goody.
Josué:If if you feel comfortable, like, bring up one or two traits that came up. They were like, wait, what? Mhmm. That's not wow.
Marc:So I think the biggest thing that kinda struck out to me, and this was something that I I know I texted you about was, like, the biggest thing that I felt resonated the most was when it was talking about the terminology of female autism, and then kind of going into the history of kind of explaining like why that term was even created and like how autism was initially viewed, you know, back then. Then just kind of listening to those traits of like being more easygoing, kind of being more of a people pleaser, being like a social chameleon and constantly code switching or masking to some extent in some degree, like all of that as opposed to like the more traditional views that they would say, or I don't even wanna say traditional, but like the the more obvious signs of autism with like, you know, stereotypy or like organizing things, like those sorts of things. Like, I never identified with those types of stuff, but like, when it came to social settings and social situations, like, always felt awkward. I always felt out of place. I was always extremely shy and very apprehensive to new social situations.
Marc:And even now I see myself, especially when I'm in an unfamiliar environment, I'm watching every single person, and I take aspects of what they're doing and their behaviors and mannerisms, and then I create a mask to fit that so that I can get myself through the night, but or or the the event or whatever it is. So hearing this in the book and kind of, like, sitting there with it and kind of thinking it to myself and processing it a little bit, I was like, Like, this makes so much more sense to me. Like, I under I I have I felt like I had a better understanding of why it is that I am doing the things that I have been doing, and I haven't been able to really come up with a solid explanation why other than maybe it's like low self esteem or something like that, which I I think is also, like, true or, like, those types of things are I do think there's some merit to it, but this just kinda offered, a no. But, like, actually, like, this is kind of, like, why you might be feeling that way, which is resulting in why you're doing what you're doing.
Josué:Yeah. This this goes to why this topic is interesting, but it's also confusing to talk about. Because we're looking at it through the lens of the way that it's talked about on unmasking autism. But it's also a person of color experience, right, what you're describing of like should being other in a room and having to I'm not discrediting what you're saying. I'm saying like, you could look at it from different lenses.
Josué:And so that's why it gets complicated. And and something you said before too, it's like, I have I have two cousins. That's like my my my my closest experience to autism as I knew as I thought about it before is I have two cousins who were nonverbal for years. One of them is still like she lives in a in a in a community for people with autism who need a lot of support. And her brother is now can live independently.
Josué:But they, but they were like, the typical autism that was represented in media, which is what I knew. And so now, like, we're gonna talk about these types of traits that you just brought up, and different things where I don't know how my my, like, my cousin's mom would react to, you know, like, I don't know what her perspective is on autism. Autism is like, as a spectrum, it's so broad. And then once Asperger's got put into it, it just made it broader. Fascinating.
Josué:Okay. So that that's an that's a that's an interesting one. That one's good. And also, like, if you brought it up, I'm assuming it's something
Link:I want to clarify that Asperger's did not make autism broader. Asperger's was a function of white supremacy. It was a narrowly defined section of autism that the Nazis thought that maybe these ones are cool, actually. We'll keep these ones and not murder them.
Marc:Or at least useful. Like, yeah, it might serve some worth and then but so we'll we'll we'll categorize them differently. So that way they're not thrown into that camp. And then, you know, shipped off or whatever.
Josué:Yeah. But we would distinguish. Right? Like, in in even in everyday conversation, people would distinguish it as like, oh, no. No.
Josué:Like, that's but that's just Asperger's. I get something different. Right? And then but but once it was integrated into the SM, not for everybody in in terms of the conversation, but also it's like, you wouldn't people don't say that they have Asperger's anymore, generally. Yeah.
Josué:Okay, Link. Do you have any?
Link:Yeah. Yeah. So a couple a couple years ago, honestly, at this point, maybe two years, year and a half, two two and a half years, started getting TikToks about autism and ADHD because I interact with a lot of content about mental health stuff because that's something I'm interested in. So weird. But it was it was just interesting seeing people talk about their own experiences, which is one of the things that I love most about TikTok is I'm getting to hear first person perspectives about experiences that I don't have as much familiarity with or don't get to hear from the it's it's somebody else telling that story.
Link:So anyways, that's very enlightening getting to hear people talk about their own lived experiences. But people talking about having autism and some of the experiences in their life, especially late diagnosed women and and gender nonconforming people talking about their experiences and just so many things that kept going. I was like, oh, yeah. Same. Same dog.
Link:Me too. That happened to me too. And it just it just kept happening. And it just there were so so many things. And it it really it hit a threshold point where it's like, obviously, any of these pieces individually don't mean anything.
Link:It's it hit a point where it's like, autism explains so much of this rather than three or four different things trying to explain all of this other stuff is like, oh, oh, it's, what's that? What's that saying about horses and hoofs or whatever? Quacks? The ducks? Fuck, man.
Link:I understand how idioms work actually. Very well. Oh, zebra.
Josué:This is actually literal. I quack the if it quacks like a duck.
Link:That one. Yeah. That one feels pretty intuitive. Well, I I guess, like, some some of the major ones is like, when I was in fourth grade, I was put into the gifted and talented education program. GATE is what it was called.
Link:And it was because I was reading at a much higher level than everybody else in my class. And so I assume to keep me from being a little shit in class, they sent me to the other room where we we drew Pokemon from Pokemon cards. Really great learning experience there. Realizing like that that was that was a special education class that I was in because I wasn't neurotypical in that in that context and having that sort of like, oh, interesting. And really relating to talking a lot about Devon Price's book, unmasking, and talking about social masking and how that worked.
Link:And I I had a very clear memory of being in, you know, in community college. So an adult talking to a peer that I didn't know, but just just talking to them about my comfort in social situations and and talking to new people and everything and me trying to explain to them, well, when I was a child, I didn't stay at the same school for more than two years. In fact, until community college, which I was at for five years, that I had never done more than two years at one school. And so I had so much practice doing that. I'm the new student.
Link:Here's how to meet people and be friendly and and be unoffensive and non threatening to people so that they don't ostracize me. Is like, I'm like, I practice that I practice that so much. And and then being like, Oh, yeah, like, sort of brushing it off and really having a hard time trying like, how do I word this so you understand? Like, that was a nearly insurmountable task that I had to deal with. And everybody's just like, yeah, but you don't seem like you're struggling socially at all.
Link:You seem fine. And like, but what I'm trying to tell you is, I'm struggling, and it's not fine. And it's just because I had to do it over and over and over again, that I got really good at it. It doesn't necessarily feel any better. I've just practiced at it.
Link:It's more normalized. And and so lots of stuff like that. Having a conversation with my grandmother just the other day where she mentioned to me unprompted that when I was a little girl, so like under six, I would sit in the corner of my room and line up all my toys and not talk to anybody. And they I was so quiet. They called me little mouse, and I was just sitting there on the phone with her.
Link:Like, I have not talked about this stuff with her at all. And I was just like, wow, okay, well, write that one down. Because there's, I don't have a lot, a lot of adults from my childhood to ask about this stuff. So the little pieces of information I'm getting are illuminating. But, yeah, yeah.
Link:So just having these these experiences reframed in such a way where it was like certain things where I'm like, oh, that was like a specific thing that happened to like rare just to me is a trauma. And then like this broader thing that happens to everyone, everybody's just not talking about it. And it's like actually both of those sides, kind of in the middle both. Yeah. Like, oh, oh, boy.
Link:Oh, boy.
Josué:Many years ago, I was I was bit I I I was I got a bite from an insect on my side. And it looked kinda weird and it started like forming these rings, like these red rings around it. And I went to a a dermatologist and they took a biopsy. And they they called me up a couple days later and they said, hey, it looks like you have lymphoma. You should go get that checked out.
Josué:And so I went to a cancer center and I got tested and multiple times. I was like, no. You don't that's not you got nothing. You're fine. I was like, okay.
Josué:Cool. The rash kept getting bigger, but I was like, okay. I just figured it was like a I had gone camping. I figured it was like a a spider bite or something. Eleven years later, I was listening to a podcast.
Josué:They were describing this bite with the red rings around it, and they described everything exactly. And they said, that's a tick bite. That's Lyme disease. That's like a symptom of Lyme disease. And so I didn't discover.
Josué:And then I went, I got I got tested and I was like, oh, yeah. No. You absolutely had Lyme disease. Like, it's still in your system. Like, we can we can see it.
Josué:This is like the advantage. Like, I would have never discovered that had I not, you know, heard somebody talk about the experiences of it and been able to to go through it. So just like the experiences that you guys are talking about, it's not it's not just it's not the fact that they're in isolation. Right? It's that they keep coming, there's multiple of them coming up.
Josué:And then they're creating, it's like, they all fall under this umbrella. I'm not at the point yet where I would say, I'm, I'm self diagnosing autism. Have, and I'm not I'm not trying to like that's not I'm just I'm just saying that's where I'm at. I do have a diagnosis of ADHD, but then there's a whole bunch of other stuff too. So I think I'll do the umbrella
Link:of neurodivergence. Really think I really think in the next decade or so the the the way that
Josué:which will change
Link:it the language will change that that the umbrella term of of neurodivergence or neurodifference like that that will be because there is so much overlap in in experiences of people with diagnosed autism and people with diagnosed ADHD. A huge amount of overlap.
Josué:And then comorbidity with a whole bunch of other stuff as well.
Lara:Yeah. Well, see a lot of I see the umbrella term of neurodivergence spreading out too. It's not just ADHD and autism.
Link:Yeah, it usually includes like personality disorders also. And then just sort of the like, we don't have a word that explains any better. So here's what you get. Yeah, diagnosed weird brain. Thank you.
Link:We got
Josué:But I, I have gotten to a point now where I'm like, nothing even surprised. I mean, sometimes I'm still got surprised when it's like, this is a neurodevergent thing or this is something that ADHD people have. I've been very surprised. I came to a realization about a year ago that a lot of those things are basically like the foundations of GT. A feeling a feeling feeling misunderstood of using media and metaphors to see the world, right of using your affinity slash interests right
Link:feeling to feeling strongly about injustice. Yeah, yeah. So Being told you're wrong when you know that you're not wrong, and by god, you will write that research paper and create a whole website and also start podcasts and several other podcasts. Oops.
Josué:And then I've never heard of it. You know, it it's funny when you said the thing about masking. I've thought about that a lot. And in my case, it's so hard and exhausting that I break sooner than most, which causes me all sorts of problems. It doesn't take me very long to be like, oh, I can't do this anymore.
Josué:You're full of shit. I'm not gonna do that. No. It's no, the answer is no.
Link:Your your social mask has the lifespan of a bag of shredded cheese left on the counter overnight. It's like, it's moldy now. It's growing. It we're not eating it anymore. It's done.
Link:Throw it away.
Josué:It's it's take it took me more than thirty years to realize how dysregulating and exhausting it was to to conform. I still have issues where I'm like, I don't understand how you can just not say anything or just, like, nod. But yeah. Lara, where where what are your thoughts? How do you how do you have you had any of these experiences?
Lara:It's interesting because yes and no. Right? Like, I've taken a million autism screeners. I've taken screeners for a lot of different things, being in school, doing all kinds of things. For me, most of like, I always score really low on autism scores except for social anxiety and sensory stuff.
Lara:Sensory processing. And I the I feel like my social anxiety has gotten and the sensory processing has gotten worse over the course of my life And sometimes better. It depends. I think it's just shifted. I was a kid that didn't I refused to wear socks.
Lara:I refused to wear jeans because I hated the seams on the socks and the jeans. But then I managed to figure out how to do that without people pushing me to. But there was a lot of like, no, I'm not doing that because it doesn't taste good. I'm not doing that because the mouth texture is bad. Not eating that food.
Lara:So there's some of that. Sounds drive me crazy. One of the one of the screeners I took. Okay. Talking about not liking fire alarms, thunder, and fireworks.
Lara:I love fireworks and thunder. Hate fire alarms. So there's that.
Link:See, I like I like thunder, and I don't like fire alarms, and I don't like fireworks because there's not warnings for those. But usually, it's raining before the thunder starts, so I have a warning. It's fine.
Lara:But it's one of those things that, like, I don't know. I appreciate being able to hear, I saved our neighborhood one time because I could hear the tran the electrical transformer sparking across the road. And Nina's like, wait, what? What are you talking about? I'm like, can can you hear that?
Lara:And I'm looking around and I see the sparks across the road, she's like, oh, shit. That's a thing. Yeah. It's got it that has been a self discovery adventure, figuring out, oh, that's why I'm irritable when I'm driving in the car and the radio's on, and someone's talking on the phone in the back. Mhmm.
Lara:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.
Josué:So so that that illustrates to me what made it so difficult, like and I think I think, Mark, you mentioned this before too. Like, everybody's experience is so different, and we don't we don't realize that. Right? We think like, oh, everybody does this, you know, or you're the only one who doesn't. You forget that, like, oh, some people, their hearing is so different that they can hear, like, static in the walls, and that is distracting.
Josué:Right? Like you can hear a transformer sparking from really far away. Nobody hears it. Can
Lara:see Like things that other people don't across the house.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Right? It's like, oh, that's a completely different experience. Knows about this one.
Josué:When I discovered what aphantasia was, my mind was blown. Okay, so aphantasia is the is the it's like the measurement of how well you can visualize things in your mind. Right? And it's you're considered to have aphantasia when you can't visualize well. And it's like, on different tests that you see, right?
Josué:It's like, you see the apple? Do you see the horse? Like, do you see a little bit? Do you see nothing? I see nothing.
Josué:And I I once had a I have a friend who has synesthesia, which is the entire opposite. Right? It's like they're seeing things when they don't wanna see things. Right? Sounds have colors and and maybe it's a whole thing about about all your all your senses are kind of combined and mixed together and they can see so many vivid things.
Josué:And so we once had a conversation. We're trying to explain, like, she could not comprehend at all how I can navigate the world without being able to visualize things in my mind. It was one of the hardest conversations I've ever had, like trying to explain this. Like, could like, I I can get you visualizing things and having intrusive vision. Like, I can conceptualize that even though I can't see it.
Josué:But she was like, how do you possibly like, if you close your eyes, how can you not see anything? How do you think about certain things? How do you plan ahead without being able to see? So those are like two polar opposites, right, like synesthesia and aphantasia. But then within every single piece of our experiences, they're just very they can be very, very different.
Josué:And so realizing that your experience is not typical and not common, I think comes as, like, a surprise. Mhmm. And I think I think that's kind of been our experience and and the experience that I see from a lot of people online.
Marc:I I find it funny that you brought up the Aventatia Hosue because I was literally having this conversation with a with a friend of mine yesterday. And she was the same way. Like, she, as far as I'm concerned, is relatively within, like, typical range with the with the senses. It's not like the synesthesia. Mhmm.
Marc:However, she found it so impossible to comprehend the fact that, like, I I don't see anything.
Josué:Yeah.
Marc:And I was telling I the way I was trying to explain it was, like, when I'm telling a story or I'm writing a story, like, I use very descriptive language because I can like, I'm referencing, like, a show or a movie where it's, yeah, it kinda looks like that. Like, that's kinda what the vibe I'm going for, But I myself can't see it. She's like, so do you not, like, comprehend? Like, can you not comprehend? Can you not conceptualize?
Marc:I was like, no. No. No. I I can do all of those things. I just can't see it.
Marc:I can't
Josué:I can't differently.
Lara:Yeah. Yeah. I just That's interesting, Mark.
Josué:I have a concept.
Lara:My experience is different. Was trying to explain to a DM that I had for D and D, like because her descriptions are beautiful. Wonderful storytelling, all kind and I'm like, when I read a book, I hate long descriptive paragraphs. I need the dialogue and I need the back and forth and the short descriptions because my brain will not be able to process all of the description at once because I can't picture a room in in the same way that other people can. Like, I can close my eyes and think, okay.
Lara:My my my desk is here. My futon's over here and kind of remember little bits of shapes. But, like, descriptions of things I've never seen before, you couldn't ask me to draw a room that I read a description of in a book or heard a DM kinda talk about, but shorter descriptions with specific words I can get. It blew her mind. So she's like, when I'm describing the scene, I'm like, I kinda pay attention.
Lara:Like, I just need to know who's there and the general layout of a space. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:I can so so so far, it has been a little bit like like being on TikTok. Some of you guys have brought up things that I would that I can that I I can relate to. Like the so, like, Laura, I wouldn't wear jeans to school. That was part of the uniform. Like, I went to like, when I was in elementary school, I went to private schools where you had to wear jeans or one school where you had to wear jeans, and I refused because I I couldn't with the with the material.
Josué:So I would always wear, like, slacks because they were, like, more breathable. I always got in trouble. Always got in trouble. It was just basically, like, they never gave me permission, but I never I never gave in. I just never did it.
Josué:And with socks, it was like, do you remember that socks used to have the seam at the front of the foot instead of going over the toes? Do you remember that? I could I I hated them. When when when I found out that socks there were socks with the with the seam on top of the toes, it was it was like a dream come true.
Lara:What could you do?
Link:Throwing out every other sock.
Lara:I had the quote, unquote, girl socks that were thinner. And so they would when I walked, they would slide forward, and the the seam would end up, like, under my toenails. Mhmm. Heated it. Couldn't do it.
Lara:So no socks. No socks and only sweats or leggings when I was younger.
Josué:Yeah. There was something you mentioned, like, that I don't that I remember relating to. Oh, the the being quiet in the corner. Like, my mom would constantly complain about how like, oh, we'd go to a party or something, you would just go and sit in a corner. And and doesn't matter where we went, you would always complain that you didn't wanna be there.
Josué:And you know, as I got older, I was like, oh, it was the noise. It was all the people. It was all this other stuff. But to them, I was just a pain in the ass. We never wanted to do anything that anybody else wanted to do.
Link:Why are you so antisocial?
Josué:Because you're
Link:talking about boring shit and everybody's talking over each other.
Josué:Unbelievable. I was also in advanced classes. I heard something recently about the it may have been in unmasking autism. It was about, like, the scene patterns, right, where where other people don't see them. And I have this memory of being in school, and there was a a game that was all about, like, number patterns.
Josué:And so you have, like, these domino pieces and you would create a pattern with numbers. And I remember having this, like, being so frustrated and even going to the teacher, right, where the other students were like, Josue says that there's this pattern here, but there's no pattern. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, the pattern is so clear. Like, the it's there.
Josué:And and I had a a good teacher that was like, you know, like, he may be seeing things differently, but that's that's also a teacher that had me, like like, I would have a different book to read than everybody else, like, had to kinda keep me entertained, kinda like what you were talking about, like yeah. So some of the more shocking ones for me. I don't know. I don't know. Some of these for you.
Josué:I mean, alongside of Fantasia, which blew my mind, was this Calculia, which is like a like a number version of dyslexia of dyslexia. I still can't read an analog clock, and I'm 40 years old. And I, yeah. Yeah. Me too.
Link:Look, I've been telling people, oh, I'm like, left. I'm like, left, right dyslexic, because I'm not like reading dyslexic, but I have always struggled with left and right and reading analog clocks. I was just like, this is another thing where it's like, it can be explained by other things. But gosh, it does also so neatly fit right in here on this big shelf of autism evidence.
Josué:When I get a code, right for like, oh, use this code to verify your login. If it's longer than four numbers, I have to go back and forth, because I can't keep more than four numbers on my mind at a time. Again, that's like under the this calculated descriptions. And I was like, shit, are you kidding? There's all this number of stuff that I was like, come on.
Josué:Can't believe it. And then and then there's also the how he's misspell it, but pros prosopagnasia, which is the face blindness. So like every time I see somebody, it's like I'm seeing their face for the first time. Like, I can generally I'm like, oh, that's Mark. But I'm like, oh, that's what Mark's eyebrows look like.
Josué:That's where his eyes are. He has a birthmark. I had a girlfriend who had a huge birthmark on her neck, like huge. It was like a distinguishing feature. And very often, I'll be like, oh, I forgot that that was there.
Josué:It was like it was like it would surprise me. It happens with my own face too. So those are just like some things that I was like, okay. Those are like bigger things. But then there's smaller ones like, oh, no, you have a yeah.
Link:Oh, another another thing that it's like I had always known was like, this is not typical, but finally got like language for it is echolalia and echolagia, which was like, so descriptive to me. Echolalia is the repetition of a word or phrase as like a stem in auditory and mouth sensation stem. Echolagia is the same thing but inside you're repeating. This is when you have a snippet of a song stuck in your head. And it is just constant that you know, two and a half to six second song phrase is just a constant loop.
Link:And I was like, oh, yeah, like people get songs stuck in their head. Like, that's like a normal, the way that I was in that that I engage with music. This was very illuminated to me in back in December, when I got my Spotify raft. Getting to compare to other people and it's like, oh, you're you're like favorite song, like for other people's like your favorite song you listen to like 24 times this year and I'm like, I found a new song, the moon by the crane wives that I like discovered in mid September and then listened to like three hundred four hundred times by like, mid mid late November when they finished doing the the counting stuff for the rap. I was like, that's not how your average person engages with a song.
Link:They don't listen to it on repeat 16 times in a row.
Josué:Why did you listen to it that many times? Like how was that related to that claim?
Link:It became a stem. It was very much there was a, you know, a piece of the song or the the intro into the song and the the outro out of it as it loops into itself on repeat, becomes like that I get you know, you get that dopamine hit from a good that song really hits. That that one vocal line is so good or that drum beat really gets me in this moment. Became a simp. So it just, I'm chasing I'm chasing that feeling.
Link:And so just listening to the same song over and over and over and over again. Yeah, yeah, really I had a moment where it's like one, oh, there's language that explains that. That's cool. I, that's me. I use that one.
Link:That's my, that's my bag. That's my bag, baby.
Josué:This illustrates two things to to me, I think that that are helpful. One is, you know, people often be like, oh, that's just an earworm. Like, get that all the time. You know? It's like, No.
Josué:No. All the things that we're talking about, like, we're bringing them up because they it's too it's it's at another level. Right? Like, it's it's a it's a problem. It's not just like, oh, yeah.
Josué:No. Whatever. Not necessarily a problem, but it's like it
Lara:symptoms. Right? Jose, like, people are like, oh, yeah. I get that all the time. I can't remember things.
Lara:No. This is like Yeah. Times a thousand.
Josué:Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And then so you mentioned stims. What are stims?
Link:Stims are repetitive behaviors that you do in order to receive some sort of physical stimulation, whether that's chewing on things, fidgets for your hands. Some people do skin picking that is very common in in autism. And ADHD is some form of skin picking, which can be you can see that where people peel the their around the skin around their fingernails, or pulling facial hair. My thing is I touch my scalp a lot. I'm not like pulling, but I'm like, I'm touching I'm touching that scalp.
Link:But it can also be more specific where it's like specific food item or flavor that you you are repeatedly doing as a way to soothe your nervous system as a way to calm it or center it or be more present or less present. If you're disassociating, it can go both directions. But that is that is what stemming is.
Josué:For me, it was helpful to reframe certain behaviors. As like, Oh, sure. From one perspective, we could see it as a, like, common, right, like eating disorders, overeating, for example. Right? It's like, oh, like, I'm I'm that's a soothing activity.
Josué:Right? Like, you could start reframing it from like, oh, you have an, like, this is a very negative behavior to like, oh, but now I understand why it's happening and why it happens so often. Because there's all these things that keep coming up that TikTok reminds me are got me all dysregulated. It's got my nervous system all worked up. Yeah.
Josué:Were there any that, like I'll I'll bring up a few and then and then you tell me if if any of these are like that for you that, like, really shocked you. Recently, someone brought up the walking on your tiptoes as a kid. I was like, shit. Check. That one that one got me.
Lara:My best friend from elementary school, middle school, high school used to walk on her tiptoes all the time. And she didn't realize that was a thing until her son, who was diagnosed with autism, walked on his tiptoes too.
Link:They were like, that's a symptom. You're like, oh, yep. Yep. The walking on your toes and there's probably an actual term for it. But when I was in middle school, my friend and I, you do like T Rex arms where you're like, instead of your arms resting down by they're they're up, they're up, hanging out.
Link:And we in middle school, my friend and I would call them Mr. Burns hands because excellence and they just leave your hands sort of flopped there. That was another thing where it's like the the look back at it like, oh, check. We had a whole term for it and everything. Yeah, just sort of hanging out be like, you're doing Mr.
Link:Burns hands again. It's like, okay, hold on. Let me let me shake him out. Let me move around. What am I supposed to do with my hands?
Link:I still don't know.
Josué:I don't
Link:have an answer.
Josué:Yeah. Actually, so my therapist is very anti diagnosis. Like, I remember having many debates with her. She's like, Well, why is the diagnosis so important for you in general, just like any diagnosis? I'm like, I I want to know how to deal with what I have.
Josué:Like, if I can then I can look for resources, and I can find support for for for this. If I can if I can under like, I don't know how to talk about this.
Link:That has been my experience too is like, don't the the idea of, like, the diagnosis from participating in the medical and insurance industry, I do not give a shit about. But the idea of having language to describe things that I can both use to connect to other people and also like, look it up and explain it and have shared language is so important to me. And that that is all that's been the thing I've been hooking on. It's like, there's there's words for this. Is this is this is like finding out I was non binary all over again.
Link:It's like, there's words for this. There's, there's words for it.
Josué:Words. Yeah. So with the therapist, I was having a conversation like this one. But like, I've seen some stuff on TikTok. It's making me rethink a lot of my past.
Josué:And they're like, I just don't see it. I don't I don't think so. Blah blah blah. And then I brought up how because I had seen this on TikTok too. I said, yeah.
Josué:I I going down escalators was and still is, like, I don't know why it kinda messes with me. But I but I have this memory of being, like, I don't know, like, 11, 12 years old. And I like, I'm at a mall and I can't like, I can't do it. I'm so scared of going down the escalator. And my uncle is just really angry and just picks me up and brings me down.
Josué:And when I told my therapist, they were like, oh, I have a family member who like that happens to them, and they have all of these supports in place. And it was like, that's when it clicked for them because I shared something that somebody that they they considered, you know, neurodiversion who had who needed different supports also experienced. And it's like, see? Like, that that one I don't how to explain that one. So so again, I think I think these conversations are super helpful, and I'm so grateful for the people online who are advocating and and sharing their experiences about all this stuff.
Josué:It's messing with us. I know. I know. But every now and then there's another one where I'm like and again, the way the way that the conversation goes, and I and I think it's good for because I I talked to there's a there's a lot of people who are therapists or in helping professions who, like, they're not on TikTok. Right?
Josué:And, like, they they are blindsided by what kids are talking about because they're not aware of they catch on to translate. Right? And so I think it's important to to to acknowledge how how great it is. Like you said before, Link, like, you're getting firsthand experience. You're getting stories from people about what they're going through.
Josué:And so these traits aren't a list of, like and you'll find videos on YouTube. It's like, oh, like, some there are some videos that bother me that are, like, you're autistic if right? Like, I don't like that phrasing, but I do like the phrasing of, hey. These seem to be common traits among people who are neurodivergent or who, like or who identify like, who think that they have autism or have diagnoses. Do you have any of these?
Josué:And it's like, woah. Yeah. But again, super helpful because people can can then discover it's not it's not just them. And also, it's not everybody. Super helpful.
Lara:Yeah. Well, and I I talked to my clients about, like, when we're going through, like, DSM criteria, we're like, okay, here's what the DSM says, but what do those things actually mean and how do they show up in your life? Like, what are the things and translating these experiences into the DSM and then also talking about the things that just tend to happen to come along because of the experience of whatever the whatever the diagnosis is. Right?
Link:I I found the thing that I am appreciative of is that it is a way to talk about the more like positive sides of it because the DSM is so focused on, you know, some sort of dysregulation or failure failure to participate in society the way that is expected in our society. And all this stuff is like having people talk about like, no, here's like, the stuff that is never going to get covered in the DSM, because it doesn't impact, you know, my ability to make relationships or my ability to perform labor. But it is very much a function of my neuro divergence. And here's how I deal with it. Actually.
Link:And here's how I share it with other people who are similar to me or different to me. And I think that that's a really cool thing that you you cannot get from the text of the DSM.
Lara:Absolutely.
Link:Because the medium is the message. Oh, McLuhan in the house again. We can't get rid of them.
Marc:Yeah. I I will say with conversations like this, I feel like when they're I feel like for us at least, like I and especially after reading this book, I have felt myself kinda start to let myself go a little bit. Like, I know, like, we talked earlier about, like, masking. And, Jose, you were saying how, like, your mask your social mask has the life shell the shelf life of literally a slice of cheese left out in the sun all day.
Josué:And and like Lara said, like, earlier, like, oh, as I get older, it's just less. It
Lara:gets worse. Yeah.
Marc:Mhmm. Or better.
Lara:Or better. Yeah.
Marc:I I remember I can remember roughly when I started, like, honing my mask and getting pretty good at it. And that was roughly around, like, sophomore junior year of high school is where, like, I kind of I started becoming more aware of it. And then it became a thing where I was constantly wearing it. And I remember when I first started therapy, I remember telling my therapist, I'm like, I honestly feel like I can never be myself around anybody. Like, I just I I can only be myself when I'm alone.
Marc:Like, when I know there's nobody there that can see me as a that's when I feel the safest. That's when I can be myself entirely. And then Devin Price says it in the book of, like, like, when it comes to masking, like, a lot of people tend to feel that way. Like, they can't be themselves. Their authentic selves around anybody.
Marc:They have to be completely alone. I was like, that's literally what I've been doing my entire life. And over time, I, like, felt I've tried to find ways to be more comfortable with unmasking myself. And I think that's why when I found geek therapy or I should say I was led to it, I became so incredibly happy because it was finally a place where I felt like I could let go of the mask for a little bit. And I had a group of people that I know I could comfortably and and safely talk to.
Marc:But after reading this book, I've I feel like I'm starting to let it slip more and more. And it's only been, like, two days, and I'm already seeing myself or I'm I'm catching myself doing things that normally I would, like, try to suppress or I would try to, like, keep it on the down low. But now I'm like, no. No. No.
Marc:No. Like, I I can feel it, and I'm just letting myself be in that moment and then kinda working through it and then getting back on it to on task or kind of putting myself together and and then figuring out a solution or handling a situation, whatever it is.
Josué:The reframing of this stuff
Lara:is like
Josué:healing in a way. Right? Like, it's a it's it's it's so I'll say it's transformative. It changes the way you look at your past. It changes the way you look at your present.
Josué:And also, think your future, like, wait. What am I gonna do next? Like like, I know that there are certain types of jobs that I cannot do. And and when I realized that that that changed what my future would look like, something you were saying, like, reminded me of, like, sometimes I struggle with the with being too positive about about some of these things. Like, oh, ADHD is a superpower.
Josué:It's like, sure. Maybe
Link:Big old asterisk.
Josué:But But there are
Lara:But are upsides to it.
Josué:See, so I'm gonna go ahead and say no. Because I'm gonna go ahead and say no because because the world is not built for that. Right? So even just the the the way and again, this is my opinion, feel free to right? But even even just creating that space for you to thrive is more difficult than simply being able to fit into the usual.
Josué:Right? So like, it's harder for you to find a job. It's harder for you to do the same jobs that other people are doing. And even even getting into a point where it's like, oh, this uses all of my my superpowers, right, all of the things that I can do easily, I can do them. We still have to deal with all the other pieces of like, the dysregulation, the the social piece of it.
Josué:Like, Mark, yeah. No. It's great that you're unmasking, and that means you're probably not gonna put up with some shit that has consequences. Oh, boy. Let me let me
Marc:me tell you, I I I almost channeled that today.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I so back. So, again, like, I I think it's great to talk about them because we can we can help each other, like you said, like, how do we how can I deal with that better?
Josué:How do we move forward? What can we learn from each other? But, like, I think always keep in mind, right, that asterisk part is, like, we're talking about things that are difficult because if it weren't, it wouldn't be in a DSM. We wouldn't talk about things being clinically significant. We wouldn't talk about autistic burnout.
Josué:We wouldn't talk about different language. I don't some people use deficiencies. Some people use disorders, some people use disability handicap. Like, these are the ways we talk about it because they they are. And some of them, sure, some of them are harder for people of color, some of them are harder for depending on your gender, on your presentation.
Josué:They're harder on your socioeconomic status. Like, there's so many pieces to this. Like, if you're rich, you're things will be a lot easier for you than if you're not. And so, like, just keeping in mind that we're talking about things that the world is not built for. And so more than likely, you will struggle even if you find a space, right, like, I found the perfect job where all of my neurodivergence is like, it just works perfectly.
Josué:But the moment you walk out of that job, the world is still there. And it's harder, potentially, to do a whole bunch of things. And like, think I in conversations like this, I think we can learn from each other about how to advocate and how to how to set things up so that we can thrive. But my my my suggestion is never forget that most of these things just make everything harder one way or another. And so if somebody is talking about these different traits, there's there's it's probably because there's there's some sort of struggle.
Lara:Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:So yeah. So I I used to be on the ADHD as a superpower. I used to be on that camp. Not not anymore. That has never actually served me.
Josué:And I discovered that eventually, I figured out like, oh, no. Even even just thinking that way may
Link:How is this?
Josué:Put me in situations that were harder.
Link:It's it was successful propaganda for you.
Josué:It was. It was. It was.
Marc:Yeah. And he's like, I'd like a return or refund on these superpowers, please. They're not helping.
Josué:Yep. Take him back. Anything else anybody wants to cover or or mention on this very important topic?
Link:I feel like we'll probably talk about it again. Maybe maybe we can talk about more autism rep in other pieces of media besides a book about autism. And the DSM. More fun media.
Josué:I just thought of something before we were recording, we were talking about like people listening to the show and identifying thing. I do this all the time. Like, I'll listen to a podcast and I'm, like, paying attention to everybody. I'm like, oh, this person sounds really depressed. Like, I hope they're doing okay.
Josué:Right? Like, I can I can tell the changes in their tone and, like, energy levels and things like that? And so I was thinking about, like, how what have we said here, right, that might, like, actually serve to like, I were gonna get a diagnosis, I'm like, yeah. Sift through the through stuff that we said. And I remember one time on this show, it wasn't too long ago, maybe in the last year or two.
Josué:I remember saying something about, like, I couldn't make eye contact with people, like, until I was 21. And I kind of remember, like, I don't remember which one of you was, like, like, cock your head to the side, like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I remember hearing myself say it and I was like, Like, why they why they look at me that way?
Josué:And then later on, I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It took me a while to be able to do to do that one. So so that's a call to action.
Josué:If you hear us, you hear any traits that you relate to, feel free to reach out or point out anything, especially if we're talking about it like, that's a struggle. It's like, that has a name. Like, don't know how often. Yeah, I'll just say I took I actually paid for a course to learn how to use memory palaces.
Link:That was a sound investment of your money.
Josué:So for if you don't know what memory palaces, it's this like, it's it's it's a technique where you where you visualize a space. And then in that space, you outfit it with different pieces of things that you want to remember. So that then when you want to recall, you revisit that space and you have all of the elements in place in some shape or form. And of course, I can't visualize anything. So I'm like, just never worked for me.
Josué:Years later, I'm like, oh.
Link:My brain doesn't do that.
Josué:Oh, another thing I want a refund for. Like, oh, my brain
Marc:my brain didn't download that program first. Yep. Yep.
Josué:I I did not have the minimum
Link:You did not come with with those drivers.
Josué:Yeah. You didn't you
Marc:didn't have the graphics card installation.
Josué:Nope. Nope. My my PC did not have the required specs to run that.
Lara:Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:How many more times is this gonna keep happening, by the way?
Marc:Probably a lot.
Josué:Like, I'm 40 years old and it's still happening.
Link:Oh. I mean, if you wanna get memento mori about it, hopefully, until the day you die. Hopefully.
Josué:It's gotta stop at some point.
Marc:No. Won't.
Lara:Like, I don't know.
Josué:I live my life very differently now than before I realized a lot of this stuff. And makes me kind of mad, honestly. Yeah. Alright. Nobody got anything else?
Josué:No? Good? Okay. No closing thoughts? No.
Josué:We did it.
Link:Well, I
Marc:will Yes. Say I think for me, if I were to have tried to have this conversation, like, even, like, five, six, seven years ago, I think my reaction to a conversation like this would be vastly different. And I'm really grateful for not only the amount of information that I have learned in that time, but also just kind of having the chance to actually read through this whole book and look at it through a much different lens. Yeah. Because I do have like a a much more comprehend better understanding of autism and the intricacies of it and how it operates.
Marc:Whereas before I know that I had a very skewed view of it just because I was trying to base everything off of what the neurotypical world views it as. So
Josué:yeah. Is one of the strengths of that book, I think, because he addresses that directly, you know, kind of, like, we are now. It's a relatively new book. I've read a few books on autism, and that one definitely stands out to me. And it's one that I I recommend.
Josué:I like it. I wonder if it's the best. I haven't read them all, but but I'm I'm a fan.
Lara:One that I have liked recently, it's an anthology. It's a graphic novel. Well, It's an anthology of comics. And so you get a lot of different people's perspectives and experiences with a visualization of what's going on. It's called Life on the Spectrum.
Lara:I picked that up at Free Comic Book Day last year.
Josué:Oh, wait. And there there's one more that I wanna recommend. The Divergent Mind. I really liked it because it's written specifically for women. It's like, these are great.
Josué:It kind of takes that that part of it of like, these are behaviors that are were treated differently because because of expectations from society and different things. And then it addresses neurodivergence from like specifically for women. And I think it's a I thought it was really good. I think it's really good. So, yeah.
Josué:Okay. Well, thank you TikTok. Thank you, Devin Price. Thank you all of you all of you for listening. Let us know.
Josué:Share any traits that you want, react to any of ours, sharing your resources and, yeah, personal experience that you feel comfortable sharing in any of our community spaces, which you can find the links to in the show notes. For more geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good. I'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, geektherapy.org.
