IPV and Interview With a Vampire
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. At Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I'm joined by Link Keller.
Link:Hello.
Josué:Marc Cuiriz Yo. And Lara Taylor.
Lara:Hi.
Josué:Alright, team. So today, we are going to, as usual, talk about media examples. This time about intimate partner violence, abuse. Maybe let's let's I I don't know how much it matters to choose the right words. I do think words matter.
Josué:And so maybe maybe that's a good place to start here. I I I think the reason why we're not sure what word to use is because we're probably gonna cover a range of toxicity and abuse that that includes physical violence and not. And so I'm just curious. What what are the terms that are most either commonly used that you you prefer that you think people are more comfortable with? What what serves us and what doesn't?
Lara:I think a lot of people still use Come back in the day. I think a lot of people still use the term domestic violence or abusive relationships when they're talking about things. But what I'm hearing more and more now is even for not not physical violence, but, like, emotionally violence or hostile environment kind of things is a, like, inner intimate partner violence. That's what I'm Okay. Hearing
Link:And from my understanding, the the language shift within, like, psychology and sociology is just that domestic violence is sort of more umbrella term that can also include like parent child abuse and grandparents and other family relationships within the home. But the intimate partner violence is specifically about people in a romantic or sexual relationship with each other. Adds a little bit more specificity.
Lara:I think that's a good definition to start off with.
Josué:Yeah. And in terms of violence, we're we're including different forms of violence, not just physical.
Link:Not just physical harm.
Lara:Yeah. Okay.
Link:All the harm. All the violent types Yeah. That could
Josué:Yeah. So so that's what we're gonna be talking about. So definitely wanna warn about that upfront. We'll be bringing up different examples. And so where do you want where do you wanna start, Laura?
Josué:Give me give me what example.
Lara:I can I can start with where this topic came up for me? So a client of mine, were talking about actually, was interesting. This topic came up when we weren't talking about the actual things they wanted to talk about in therapy, but just like what they were watching with their partner. And we started geeking out about Interview with the Vampire, the show on AMC. Love the show.
Lara:I watched the movie when I was younger, but I remember very little about it. All I know is Brad Pitt, Antonio Banderas, Kirsten Dunn Kirsten Dunce. And I think what came up for this person was that it was easier for their partner to understand what they had gone through in a past relationship because of watching this show together. I think they tried to explain it to their partner before as many of us would probably do. We try to explain experiences we've had in the past that might influence our behavior and our reactions in a current relationship.
Lara:But it didn't sink in for their partner until watching the show. And specifically, were watching the first season. And then since then, I've had conversations with this client about the second season as well. Because there's a lot there's a lot of different kinds of abuse in that show. Yeah.
Lara:Yeah. Okay.
Josué:So so so then to clarify, your your client had had
Lara:An an abusive relationship. Yeah. In a past relationship and had difficulty getting out of that as many people do. Yeah. And I think that was the biggest piece that their current partner couldn't understand was, like
Josué:Like, why they couldn't just leave? Yeah.
Lara:Why you didn't leave? And I think through watching the show, it kind of helped it solidify, oh, okay. I mean, sure. Let's throw some vampires on there, and, like, it it helps us understand human nature. And I think the idea of the show vampires living forever, vampires having incredible strength and superpowers, I think it exaggerates what our human experience is and kind of takes it over the top so that you can kinda it exaggerates it so you can see it better.
Lara:Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
Josué:it works pretty well also in the sense that, like, you meet this person and they transform you, but they also have some kind of power over you. You may feel like you owe them. You asked me to watch or you you suggested that I watch episode five of season one. So we don't have to go to super spoiler.
Lara:Or yeah. You wanted an episode, so I threw out the one I think that depicts the what my client and I were talking about the the best. Okay.
Josué:Yeah. So so give us a general idea of, like, what what was represented there that was helpful.
Lara:So in without oh, how do we do this without so many spoilers? I mean, it shows the like, the rest of the show kinda builds up to this moment of this big fight between the two and the relationship. Mhmm. I mean and finally, the person who's been controlled and been been abused this whole time, fights back or tries to fight back. And it doesn't go so well for him.
Lara:It's a very violent episode for sure. Vampires using their superpowers on each other. And I think watching watching them I don't know. I don't know how to explain it without all the spoilers, so Sway. I'm I'm trying not to use names.
Lara:I'm trying not to. It just
Josué:Dude, dude, I mean
Link:I I think it's okay to do a little bit of spoilers for the first season of the show.
Lara:For the first season
Link:of the second season. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're I think you're okay. It's not even the last episode of the season.
Lara:It's not even the last it's not even the the the second season isn't even the last season. They're going on for another season.
Josué:Also, it's not it I don't think it's a it's a huge spoiler that there that Louis and Lestad have a an unhealthy relationship.
Lara:Really?
Josué:That's visible from, like,
Lara:from the start of video. It's all over Tumblr and everything now. And I think there were choices It is all over Tumblr. My friend is on Tumblr and says, I really wanna watch Interview with the Vampire because it's on Tumblr. Yep.
Lara:So but, yeah, Louis and Lestat end up they have an unhealthy relationship. Lestat forces him to become a vampire and does have that control over him, teaches him how to be a vampire. And I don't think Louis, for a while, thinks anything of it and then realizes how messed up it is and wants to fight back partially for himself, but more for Claudia, who is his vampire sibling companion. And I think the show just goes over the top with, like how much the power dynamic takes an abusive relationship and shifts it even more. Right?
Lara:The scales are weighted even more. But, I mean, the most powerful scene is one I don't wanna spoil for people. But let's just say it is really fucked up. Yeah. I
Josué:mean, is two super powered beings, busting through walls and doing all sorts of stuff where
Lara:Yeah.
Josué:Yeah, it is a I mean, of course, it's exaggerated, but it is it is their version of domestic violence. Yeah.
Lara:Yeah.
Josué:Do you just like I feel like Do you think that makes it I don't know. I'm not sure what the question is because it's not realistic. Right? Because it's not realistic, but it's still representative of like, it's absolutely two people in an intimate relationship beating the shit out of each other. But they're vampires and they can fly and they can, like, bust through walls and do all these different things.
Josué:And so it doesn't feel it feels like a superhero movie, a vampire movie. Right? It feels I I my opinion without it wasn't triggering for me to see it in that sense where a more realistic depiction for me would be or has
Lara:been in the past. Yeah. And I don't I'm not going to speak for my client, but when we were talking about this, they were very calm. And, like, we were just kinda at the end of the session shooting the shit. Right?
Lara:So I think the fact that it was this supernatural depiction rather than something you would see on a soap opera or Grey's Anatomy or any, like, super like, special episode of whatever show that's depicting abuse in a more realistic fashion. I think it made it easier for them to watch that. And like I said, it also made the other the their partner easier for them to accept the message. Oh Yeah. That's why you can't leave.
Lara:It's it's more metaphorical. Like, Louie can't leave. There are there's like he can't break free from him. He's in his head. Yeah.
Lara:Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. The the actual, like, psychological, emotional manipulation that with the exception of, like, vampire stuff of, like, telepathy, the rest of it is still pretty pretty spot on. Right? There's, like, I mean, manipulation and emotional abuse and lying, the tantrums, the the the aggressive language, like, all of that is that's
Lara:the They're like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm going to give you these lavish gifts and take you to these fancy parties and and show you how much I really love you. That that other me isn't me. Right? Which is a fair that that's like textbook.
Lara:Right?
Link:Yeah. I think there's an aspect in having it be fantastical that makes it more accessible to people in that way, in that if it is supposed to be real, it it our our brains are going to focus on the things as well that that wasn't realistic to my experience. That wasn't how it was. When you've got vampires, you're like, well, obviously, I didn't have vampire magic used against me, but it felt like I had magic vampires used against me. And so it's like that that space of fiction and fantasy is, the space that allows us to, like, open up a little bit and connect with it more, through that metaphor, of the the fantasy aspects.
Josué:Yeah. Do you you don't have to speak to this client in particular. I'm gonna ask. You don't have to answer. Do you know if your client had attempted to show like, had they they they apparently couldn't get the message across, right, to the partner, but Interview with the Vampire was helpful in doing so.
Josué:Do you know if they had tried other something other than just telling their their own story?
Lara:I don't know. I don't think I I can't speak to that, but they've watched other shows, I know for sure, that have abusive relationships. They're currently rewatching Game of Thrones. So so many abusive relationships there too. But I don't the thing with Game of Thrones is the relationship isn't the focus of the story.
Lara:Like, in general, that's an ensemble cast. You're focusing on a lot of
Josué:things. Relationships.
Lara:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. This the relationship is the story.
Link:Yeah. Game of Thrones is interested in the ways that interpersonal relationships have far reaching political impacts. Interview with a Vampire is very much about the vampire who's being interviewed.
Lara:Exactly. Exactly.
Josué:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because because I I I think it's so good when you find something that works for you.
Josué:Right? And outside of the the topic of intimate partner violence. It's the fourth movie about depression that I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm depressed. It's like, maybe I had
Marc:to get it the
Josué:first time. You know, but it's good to find something that's like, Oh, that's representative of my experience or like, Oh, that's that that one clicked. Yeah. That's why I was curious if this was like, if they were attempting, you know, multiple times to to get that because that's that's gotta be really hard when you, you know, you're trying to you want them to understand this part of you and they don't. So what can you
Lara:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Josué:That can be exhausting.
Lara:Another thing with with Interview with the Vampire so the second season, without any spoilers, there is a moment well, light spoilers, but, like, there is another abusive relationship and it looks very different. It's more like coverts, the psychological control and in and, like, isolation and Gaslight. Lying and deceit. And I think the experience that that speaks to me in that is this idea of you you have done this you've been in this horrible relationship. You know that it was wrong.
Lara:You'll finally got the energy to leave it and and walk away and put it behind you in all kinds of fantastical vampire ways. And then you you feel like you've moved on. You're you're gonna try again. And you the realization that, oh, shit. I'm in another thing like that.
Lara:Yeah. And have been for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lara:I think that's actually common too. Unfortunately, people who get out of these abusive violent relationships can end up in a cycle of ending up in another one and they have a higher risk of being in a relationship like that again. Yeah. Whether they reckon and even though they may recognize the signs. But if the person is different,
Link:the signs are different. If you get a different set of signs this time.
Lara:Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Josué:No longer as equipped as I used to be to reference different psychologists and theories that have explanations for why your father was abusive to your mother and you end up in a similar relationship. There are different explanations for why those kinds of things can happen. But just I like what you said, just in general, sometimes you can find yourself in that situation. I don't think you're ever looking for it. You're never looking for that.
Josué:But sometimes you fall into it again.
Lara:I yeah. I I Whether it's interview with the vampire
Josué:or anything else. Yeah. Go ahead.
Link:I just I just want to say I feel like it it that framing was very much focused on the person who's receiving abuse. I do I would really like to just re angle that a little bit in that people who have experienced abuse are targeted by abusers.
Lara:Yes.
Link:So it is not just like, oh, you you have unexplained unexplored patterns in your own behavior, which absolutely could be true. Aside from that, abusers look for people who are easy to abuse. So And I think
Lara:it and I think they I think they depict that perfectly in this show. Yes. Mhmm.
Link:Well, and they and they do a really good job of setting up the the relationships as also because of vampire life spans, there's an intergenerational aspect to it that I think is very interesting. Yeah. Less appropriate for the topic we're having right now, but I I that's a cool thing about interview.
Lara:But it's a cool thing about vampire stories.
Link:It's a cool thing about vampire stories.
Josué:It's it's a good point. I know at the beginning of the first season, Louie's like, oh, I was hunted by Mhmm. By Lestat. Like, he sought me out. He he he wanted me in that situation.
Lara:Yeah. Good point. Mhmm. Mhmm. But that's also what vampires do, whether they're hunting you to eat you or turn you into a vampire and abuse you for years.
Lara:You know?
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Any other stories that come to mind or that you had in mind?
Lara:I think I mean, I brought up and you almost finished the book.
Josué:So close. Yeah.
Lara:So close. Last year, free comic book day, the book came out, I think, last year. I picked up, on a whim, the book so much for love by Sophie Lambda. And this is her memoir of an abusive relationship that she was in and how she was targeted and the, like, buildup at the beginning of the relationship where it's all, like, love bombs and all she just, like, falls into this relationship with him and moves so quickly and then realizes, oh, no. What did I get into?
Lara:And the power of talking to other people about what happened, especially with this partner. Like, talking to his other exes helped her realize and get out of it. It's a really good book. I think what makes it more accessible to for me, right, is it's a comic. Like, not a super realistic art style.
Lara:It's it makes it easy to read, and yet anytime I read a graphic memoir, I'm like, oh, wow. This is somebody's actual story. There might be a few tweaks here or there to make the story more cohesive and linear, but this is our actual story. And the book itself has if I remember correctly in the back of the book, it's got a bunch of resources for people Mhmm. Yeah.
Lara:Relationships that involve intimate partner violence. So Yep. Really good book. Really good story. And the power that that talks to the power of, like, not being alone in it.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I just read it, and it be the the style so first of all, it's a 300 page graphic memoir. So it is it is really big, and it takes its time with the relationship. So it goes through, like like, damn, we were so in love.
Josué:These are all the things that happened. This is how, you know, we got to here. And then this is when things like things started coming up and they didn't look right. And like it it everything has time to breathe in that story. And it's also, yeah, super accessible.
Josué:And I I would highly recommend that. And I'm I'm adding that to my list of things that I would give to people. I yeah. Like, I don't know. I know people who are in relationships that I believe are abusive.
Josué:They don't. But I I believe that they are. I don't know that Interview with the Vampire would reach them necessarily. But this book, I'm like, oh, I could I could I might be able to suggest this to a few people and and see just to see what they think. Because even though it is explicit in the sense that it is, like, from the first page, is telling you this is the story of an abusive relationship that I was in.
Josué:It is again, like it covers so much of it and and it has the internal monologues and and even one thing that I really like about it, she has like, it's almost like her subconscious is in the book as this teddy bear that is always with her. And so she gets to Mhmm. Like, sometimes when you're arguing with yourself, she does this really like, I really like the way that she does it in the book where she's she's having these conversations in the moment as these things are happening with this this other part of herself that she's representing as a as a sassy teddy bear. It's I think it's really good. I think I think it's I think it's I can see how helpful it could be because of how accessible it is.
Lara:And I think there's a moment, if I'm remembering correctly, that probably toward the end where she talks directly to the reader about, you know, if this is your situation, if you find yourself in a situation like this, you're not alone. And Yeah. Or something about, like, this story is similar to other stories. And and I think that's where the, like, the importance of talking to other people comes into it.
Josué:One one part that I marked here that stood out to me is that she says learning how manipulators are wired turned out to be my lifesaver. It helped me understand in a no going back kind of way. Like, what my what the potential solutions were, etcetera, etcetera. And that comes after she spends a lot, a lot of time explaining many different aspects of like, she's dissecting the relationship afterwards, like for the last 100 pages. And she's like, this is what gaslighting is.
Josué:This is what isolation is. This is what hoovering means. Like, she's going through all these things and showing examples of how it happened in the relationship. So she's really like, again, gives everything time to breathe. And she's, you know, like, at at that point, she's hoping that that will also be helpful to the reader in understanding what it is that's happening.
Lara:And I think that's way more accessible. But yeah. Yeah. But it's way more accessible than a textbook or a document that lists out the types of of abusive behaviors, the types of the like, ways that abusers can control somebody. Right?
Lara:Like, having those examples, the names of the of the the actions and the examples from someone's actual story in a comic form is way more accessible to me than as a therapist reading it in a textbook. Right? My brain is gonna have it hold here.
Josué:Yeah. And I was speaking to someone recently, and they said something like, I know it's my fault, and I can do things differently. And I'm like, woah. No. No.
Josué:No. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.
Josué:Stop. Stop. Stop. And it's like, they're just like, like, that's just very manipulative behavior on their part. But they're not gonna listen to me.
Josué:They're in in that particular moment. That's not that's not registering. But I feel like, hey, check out this book, see if anything resonates. Why or why not? And let me know.
Josué:And I think, yeah, I think it would be super, super helpful for those types of conversations.
Lara:Yeah. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Josué:That's a good one. Yeah. But and then that is a memoir, like you said. So it's not a fictional story, but it's presented in a really, really cool way, I think.
Lara:Yeah. There's no fantastical vampires in there, but there are teddy bears in her sub in her in her, like, head talking to her.
Josué:Yeah.
Lara:And it's
Josué:You you mentioned marbles before before recording. And it's one of those I always remember one of the things I like about Marbles, another graphic memoir, is the depiction of a of a comic book artist or a cartoonist of their internal experience. Illustrations are wild. They can just show all sorts of stuff. There's some really, really great ones in this book that I think are The metaphors are really, really, really good and and really convey a very clear and obvious message.
Josué:I think it's great. Highly recommend it. Yeah. That was that was good. Very good recommendation.
Lara:I'm pretty good at finding the good comics.
Josué:You are. You are. Let's see. Any other stories that you guys thought of beforehand? Before, like, before recording?
Josué:Or they've come up now? So
Marc:when Laura suggested this topic, I have spent, pretty much since it was suggested up until really the second. Really trying to think of, like, media that I've watched, I've read, you know, that I've consumed throughout my life that had depicted this type of scenario or that has addressed this addressed this in in really any capacity. And what comes to my mind is usually, like, snippets of, like, shows or, like, little things that,
Link:Yeah. Like, address
Marc:Like, little procedurals or, like, even with, like, Steven Universe where it's, like, you see it, it's a dress, but it's not like it's its own, like, little subplot that kinda drags on. You forget about it for a while, and then it kinda comes back. You dress it a little bit, and then it then that's it. It's done. And then you're then it kinda delves more into, like, the the aftermath of it.
Marc:And I don't know what it is, but I I have, like, ideas, and I feel like I can almost see it can't quite see it, but almost see it in my head of things that I have consumed and examples that are there. But like names and titles and things like that are escaping my mind. And then it just kind of falls back into like my own experiences and like things that I've used, but like, what I've used wasn't necessarily like something that addressed it, or like was talking about it. It was like, Oh, no, no, but see how like, how these people are, like, that's kinda what it felt like, even though, like, in the show or in the movie, they're not necessarily, like, in a relationship. They're just two characters that have this dynamic.
Marc:The main one that comes to my mind was 13 reasons why. And, like, the main female character and the main guy character, like, there's like the episode that addresses his tape, in particular, and that was the the that episode for me in that first season was like the toughest episode for me to watch, because how he felt throughout that entire episode was how I felt in a previous relationship. And having to kind of go through that and address that even though like they weren't in a relationship, and it wasn't necessarily like an abusive or anything like that. It was just the feelings that he felt portrayed what I was experiencing when I wasn't one. And this is why I felt the way that I felt.
Marc:Then using that to kind of explain that to my wife of like, hey, like, this is why I got so messed up. This is why things are the way they are, and this is why I'm trying to work and and heal from this. But at that time, I still had a lot a lot to work on. But that's what I used. Like, that was the main show.
Marc:And I know, like, in like, I believe in the second season, it does dive more into, like, abusive, toxic relationships with some of the other main characters. And, you know, the aftermath of what followed from the first season. But that's it's hard for me to remember a whole lot of details, just because it has been a very long time since I've watched anything about that show.
Josué:Got it. Was it was it hard for you? Like, the like, was it, like, oh, that was me. That was me during that time in a particular situation when you saw that character. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Like, you were talking earlier, like, how you said
Marc:you were talking with, like, a friend, and they they're like, oh, well, I know it's my fault. I I gotta make these changes. You're like,
Lara:no.
Marc:No. No. No. That was me watching that episode. Like, ah, yes.
Marc:That's me blaming myself for all the things that I could have done that I didn't do. Got it. And all these things, like, it it was very much of, like, a more of a subjective, like, this is how this was my perspective on it. Not like this is a perspective on the relationship as a whole, but more of my perspective and the feelings that I felt and the guilt and and shame that I felt. But, obviously, it didn't address everything like, you know, like that trapped feeling and all those other things because that wasn't the point.
Marc:But it did a very good job of explaining like of like it it served as a segue for me to kind of open up and explain like, it's because of these feelings that I ended up feeling like this, and this is why it was so difficult for me to end up leaving, or finding a way to remove myself from it entirely and get to where I'm at now. Yeah.
Josué:And that's that's the powder the power of these fictional stories. It doesn't even it doesn't have to be exactly the same situation. It can just be like, serve as an analogy for it. But the feelings can be similar, and it acts as a mirror and a slap in the face. Like, oh, oh, it's a wake up call.
Josué:You're like, oh, yeah. Nope. Yep. I that was me. Different different context, but yep, absolutely.
Josué:I get it. Oh, no. We haven't talked about, 13 reasons why in a long time.
Marc:I know.
Lara:We talked I feel like there's a while we talked about it, like, every damn week.
Josué:It was There was a
Marc:good there was a good stretch of it. And that's why I was, like, in my head, I was like, man, I know that's been talked about quite a bit. I know it's been addressed quite a lot. And I'm like, do I really wanna bring that back? But at the same time, like, talking about this, like, in my head, like, this was, like, the core thing that kept coming up for me.
Marc:And I was like, I know I wanna try and talk about an experience that isn't necessarily my own, but at the same time, like, this was all that was coming up for me. So I was like, I I feel like this is something that, like, I I have to talk about. I have to share it.
Lara:Well Just And, Mark, thinking about, like I mean, I my topic was talking about intimate partner violence, but, like, the way I brought it up was the idea that my client was able to use the show to talk to their partner about past relationships and how that's led them to be in this relationship. And I think that's that's the piece of my topic that stuck with you. And I think that's important. It's an important thing. Media can help us explain to others what our internal experience is and how things affect us and how we got from point A to point B.
Lara:Yeah. So it's an important piece to to add.
Josué:I I I think that there are two reasons why is very, helpful in many situations. And sometimes I just thought of this. I don't think I'd ever mentioned this before when we talked about the show. And I'm not a 100% on this. It just came to me.
Josué:Let me let me let this one simmer for a bit. But they show things very explicitly, and they show things that some people might think are unlikely because they're so exaggerated. Right? And if we're just talking about, like, teenage life. But I don't think that's true.
Josué:Like, these are nothing that they showed there are things that don't happen in in real life. One of the examples in my life of intimate partner violence was like one family member shot the other. Like, you don't usually see that portrayed in a movie. Like, there's a couple fighting and one pulls out a gun and shoots the other. But that's like, that happens.
Josué:Right? Like, there are those extremes are are real. And I've never seen that in a story. I've never seen that. I'm I'm sure there are, but I've never seen that portrayed in anything.
Josué:We're in the middle of an argument, something like that happens.
Lara:Possibly in a procedural somewhere.
Josué:I'm sure. Yeah. I'm sure there's a couple
Link:Law orders
Josué:we do. Yeah.
Link:People are forensic files.
Marc:I always feel like, like stuff like that, like where it's like, like, oh, like, that's like, something that you wouldn't really see. Like, that's not a topic or like a scene that you're really gonna find it like a movie or something. Like, I feel like the way they kind of address it or the way that they do try to showcase it is that they change the the significance of the whatever the relationship between the two characters are. So, like, if it like, for you, like, when you said it was, like, two family members in, a show, they might make it, like, like, two friends fighting against each other or, like, rivals in a sense where, like, that sort of stuff happens. And then that's the way that you can use it to kind of explain and process through whatever internal things are coming up for you in regards to the event that you've experienced or that someone else has experienced.
Marc:But in this sense, they're like, oh, well, that's like for TV or for movies depending, they're like, that might be too much. So then they they change it a little bit, but they'd still try to drive the point home. And the only other thing that, like, I feel like also kinda comes to mind where it's where I feel like this gets talked about or addressed of like this intimate partner violence was also the White Lotus. I can't remember if it's season one or season two. Think it's season one where they go to Hawaii.
Marc:And it's newlyweds that and the husband is constantly arguing and then talks down to her. It gets to a point in the relationship where she threatens to leave, but then at the end of it, she decides to just stick through it. She's like, You know what? Sure, I'll stay, even though there's all these other red flags.
Josué:Yeah. That's a I mean, and White Lotus is a good example. That is one of those things where, like, they're on their honeymoon. And during the honeymoon, he starts displaying apparently, right, according to her, because we don't we don't see the relationship before. But she's very surprised by his behaviors and and starts to really notice that, like, who did I marry?
Josué:Who who is this person? No. That definitely happened in season one. But and and as you were saying something before that, it reminded me that I mean, Interview with the Vampire does have the equivalent of, like, shooting somebody, but it's it's vampires. Right?
Josué:Like, the thing that Lara doesn't wanna say that happens, like, yeah, that's pretty much, like I'd say that's on par with two humans. One human shooting another is, like, what that one vampire does to the other. Just about Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:It's but it doesn't feel as like, I can't shit just thinking about it. Because, like, yeah, I get it in procedurals. The relation like, maybe you'll get ten minutes at the beginning of the you know, to meet that couple and see what happened, and then the rest of it is like, you're not gonna get forty minutes an hour with that to, like, get invested and see like, care as much. It might be might have shock value, maybe. Right?
Josué:Yeah. But there isn't the there isn't, like, weight to it as much, maybe. Mhmm. For it to be
Link:as much of a
Josué:conversation starter.
Lara:You get several episodes, several hours of being invested in this relationship, more so than you would in
Josué:a things. Yeah. Yeah. Again, like these family members, like, they were having issues for for a long time. Like, this wasn't this didn't come out of nowhere.
Josué:And there was there was there was alcoholism involved. Like, there was a lot of stuff. And, yeah, like, it's it's more meaningful than just, like, reading a headline like you would in a in a procedural. Mhmm. That's a good example, Mark, the the one from White Lotus.
Josué:I forgot about that.
Marc:Yeah. I I think It it was it was there, and I was like, I was trying to remember bits and pieces of it because I I I know that it escalates. And I remember when I was watching it with my wife, I was like, this this does not look like this is a toxic relationship. Like, I remember telling her, like, this this is what this is supposed to depict. And I remember her kind of, like, in the beginning of, like, the beginning of it, she was, like, disagreeing with me on it.
Marc:And then as I as we kept watching more, I was like, yeah. No. This is exactly what it is. And and then we, like, kinda were having a conversation about it, of, like, how that dynamic worked. And, like, I was kinda helping her see, like, this is how why I kept saying that it was because I as someone who has also experienced it, like, I was able to kinda see, like, all the here are the tendencies that I'm noticing that the character is doing or, ah, like, the way they said this, I'm like, that doesn't it I could see it going down the dark slope and then, you know, then you see it happen on the in the episode.
Marc:And then you ultimately see, like, at the end of, like, what happens for a lot of people, you know, that that feeling that you're stuck and that you're trapped. And so you just try to do what you can to make the best of it for yourself as a way to protect yourself from it. Yeah.
Lara:Yeah.
Josué:Okay. Feel free to use hand signals to stop me, from this from this turn that I'm gonna make here. But that episode in particular, that type of toxic relationship, if I remember correctly, was very dude, bro, want a submissive wife, which makes me think of the romanticization romanticization of trad wives and things like that. Right? Where it's like, oh, right?
Josué:Like, we're showing like, oh, you know, I don't want my wife to work. And they're like, yeah. We don't yeah. Women should have worked. Like like, things that we I don't think any no longer okay, but we do see now.
Josué:And again, it's framed differently. It's packaged differently, but it is the submission of women, the the disempowerment of of women, and then again, like in a romanticized way. And it's interesting. I I forgot what article it was. Was it the Atlantic New Yorker?
Josué:I don't know, where they interviewed, like, a a trad wife influencer. And then, basically, the the reporter was like, I don't know if this woman's okay. I don't I don't think I don't know that that that's alright. And then there there have been people who women who have come out and said, like, yeah. Like, I didn't realize, like, the the type of situation that I was in.
Link:That was vanity fair.
Josué:That was vanity fair. There you go. Thank you. You're welcome. And but they're they're they're I've seen different, right, versions of this where the women are like, yeah.
Josué:No. I realize that's that's not okay. And it's just weird that, sure, some women were willing to say that in the fifties, right, when the forties when that was what was expected. But now a lot of people fought really hard so that so that people don't have to be in that situation. But they they put themselves there and there are groups of people who celebrate that and who celebrate what what I've know, what what in many times appears as as very abusive and toxic relationships.
Josué:Not even going into physical violence necessarily. That may be a part of it in some relationships, but just that psychological and emotional piece of just putting somebody down and having them be submissive is very surprising for me to see. Again, it's that it's the celebrated part of it. Like, it's it's this romantic version of it. Curious your thoughts on that.
Link:I think it's really important to recognize a lot of the, like, the influencers that are doing that trad wife stuff. It's that's fake. That's performance. That is that is selling something to a certain target demographic, not representative of the real experience that they're having. But, yeah, it's weird.
Link:It is weird.
Josué:I mean, I know people like that who may not be influencers, but, like, they believe their purpose on this earth is to procreate because that's what God said, and they don't wanna work and they want to, you know, be the perfect housewife. And it is it is it's hard to to watch and believe that it's that it's real and true. And even if the influencers might be might be faking it, they have audiences that either aspire to or relate to because that's either what they want or that's the situation that they're trying to be in. Mhmm. Right?
Josué:I mean, I think.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:We all live that way in the the West, you know, like, a hundred years ago. That was pretty common. Fifty years ago, sixty years ago.
Lara:I will I will point out that people can be stay at home moms and still be empowered people. Right? They don't need like, it just because someone is a stay at home mom does not mean that they necessarily are submissive to their husbands or whatever. They don't they don't have trad wife and stay at home mom are not the same thing. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Trad for traditional, which for a while I was like, what does that what what does the Trad stand for? No idea. Kind
Lara:of kind of
Link:funny because a lot of the traditional stuff that they're referencing are not actual lived traditions, but are marketing from post World War two. World's trying to get people to buy homes and have babies.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah.
Lara:Yeah. I mean Interesting stuff. Talk about romanticizing relationships and marketing. Jose, you brought up the movie It Ends With Us before we were recording. Mhmm.
Lara:Yep. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. What about it? None
Lara:of us have seen this movie.
Link:I know. Or read the book that it's based on. However, it has been below lot. Discourse. There's a lot of discourse right now.
Lara:Yeah. My experience of it is my friend and I went to a horror movie, and we saw the full trailer. This was a few months ago. I know that marketing has taken different routes and there's been shifts in who's in charge in, like, the production piece. But when I went to go see the the movie, like, this this horror movie, they put it the trailer in between two other horror movie trailers, and it was very, like, rom com y, but then also, like, oh, there's a scary piece.
Lara:Like, they put the the scary music in and, like, there's a little jump scare and you should be scared of this guy. Now the trailers on TV cut all the scary pieces out and it's very rom com focused and doesn't talk at all about the fact that the movie is about an abusive relationship. In fact, the author says, you know, she doesn't want content warnings for any of her books or or movies or something like that.
Marc:That's why to
Lara:go in and experience it as it is. Yeah. Don't like that.
Josué:Less traumatizing people. Yeah. What's interesting to me about the the discussion around the movie not interesting. I've I've been fascinated by it. Is the idea that you can have a subject matter like domestic violence and then have two creatives, right, who are in charge of the production and them each of them be able to tell a completely different or promote the movie in a completely different way.
Josué:Right? Where one person is saying, I wanted to make this movie because this is an issue that we don't talk about enough. I want to show it faithfully. I want people to learn from it and here are resources on how to address this. And then the other person is like, this is a movie about female empowerment.
Josué:Grab your friends, wear florals, and come have a good time. Right? And and they're talking about the same movie. There's some drama that it might not be exactly the same movie that one of them made their own edit, that's what ended up being on time, which is fascinating also.
Lara:We'll find out something has come up in what I've heard
Josué:too.
Lara:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Josué:But for now for now, right, just the idea that this this at one point was happening simultaneously because right now, it's not really happening simultaneously. The side that was talking about the movie more like a PSA, that voice has been silenced pretty much. Right? Like, that's not there's no there's no marketing budget behind that. And there's no and and the the discussion has shifted
Link:to me. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I've learned more about relationships between directors and producers on movies in the last couple weeks than I ever have before for that same because of that. And but, yeah, just like how do you tell the story? How do you rep how do you present something like this?
Josué:How do you I sent you guys a a video on TikTok where this person was like, one of the short trailers, showed the the quote from Blake Lively of grab your friends and bring your florals. And she's, like, all peppy about it and excited. And then she's like, yeah. No. This movie was super triggering for me because the the domestic violence is the intimate partner violence is explicit.
Josué:Right? Like, it is it is happening. It is in your face. It is not covered up. It's not happening behind a curtain.
Josué:Like, you are in it. And that is that is unbelievable that you would it feels so irresponsible and so tone deaf and just this is, again, such an important topic. Also the idea that, again, like, the the conversation around it being that that it's just something that happens in the movie. You know? And, like, you get to see this really nice love story.
Josué:This thing happens and then girl power. She's, like, so strong because she gets past it. That is very, like, dismissive of abusive Again, haven't seen the movie, haven't read the book, but this is is what I'm
Lara:gathering That for
Josué:seems to be people's experience with it. Yeah. Yeah. It is.
Lara:Yeah. Do you
Josué:think this represents a larger difficulty with talking about domestic violence in in media?
Lara:Yes. Link's got a definitive answer.
Link:Yes. Yeah. Cool.
Josué:Cool. Cool. Cool. Is it mean, do we do we talk about it? Like, is it something that just we we shy away from at all?
Josué:And if it does, then we don't want to? We we talk about it differently?
Link:I think it's it's a bunch of interconnected factors. Right? It's, you know, who who is the the main character of the story that the perspective the audience is supposed to be engaging with, and what we're supposed to feel about the things that are happening in the story. And I think based on again, we haven't seen it, we haven't read it based on the knowledge that we do have with Colleen Hoover Hanover something, the author of the book, not wanting to do any sort of content warnings. And the same thing happening with the movie where we're not warning people what's going to happen.
Link:It feels very much that the intended audience is people who don't haven't experienced interpersonal or intimate partner violence or domestic abuse, who that was not the consideration. It was supposed to be some sort of twist surprise to shock people. And that is very that feels very targeted towards like, well, people who don't know anything about it, who've never experienced it, or who only witnessed it in other TV shows or whatever. And instead of being like, well, if we're talking about domestic violence, maybe we should be centering the real people who have experienced domestic violence and take care to be mindful about the way that we're telling stories that it doesn't have ripple effects on the way that abuse victims get treated in the real world, by their family members, by their friends, by our legal system, by social media, all of those are interconnected. And so that that that like, I don't want to warn people because I want it to be a shock and surprise is it feels very much of like, oh, we were not thinking about real people who experience TV at all.
Link:That was very much not the focus. And so it was very interesting looking at, you know, interview clips with the director who he's talking about. Like, he wanted to be really careful about playing his he is the director and also plays the abusive character in the movie, which also is very interesting. But he he was like, I wanted to be very careful about the way that I portrayed my character. Because if I portrayed it in a wrong way, it looks badly on her, on my on my co star, on on women who get into relationship with people and and then are abused is like, he was thinking about it.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:So
Link:as is yeah. Yeah. It's very, very interesting stuff. But I do I do
Lara:think it is it is
Josué:black and everything. Yeah.
Link:It it is very reflective of, you know, like larger cultural values and and like the way that rape culture infects everything and and misogyny and all of that stuff is like feedback loop is in there in escape.
Lara:Well, and I think the I think it's, like, it's even more responsible marketing it as a rom com. Like, it seems very fun and jovial in the in the in the trailers. Right? Now if you walk into a thriller or a drama and you don't know there's gonna be violence like that in the movie, okay, you're not as surprised. It's not a shock in that way.
Lara:Yeah. It's a twist, but, like, you're not expecting it's such a stark difference. It's like having fun with your friends and somebody just trauma dumps in the middle of the group when you're all having a fun time. Right? Like, you don't expect it.
Lara:It's
Link:like Something that that just came to mind talking about this, like, mismatched marketing is Jennifer's Body, which came out in 2014. Pretty cool horror movie. I'm I enjoy it. Some things have not aged well. But overall, pretty cool.
Link:But they marketed it completely wrong for what the horror movie was. It was still marketed as horror movie, but it it ended up being pretty poorly rated because they marketed it to men as like, look at this hot babe. Megan Fox, look how hot she is. And then the movie ended up being about a relationship between two women and sexual assault and revenge and and the kinds of abuse that can happen between close friends who aren't romantically entangled. But yeah, very interesting stuff.
Link:The the way that the the marketing is so separated from what the thing is trying to do.
Lara:Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:When when you were describing, like, this idea that maybe it was just there for, like, shock value. It made me think of another possibility, which which I hadn't considered before, which I think is the most harmful one. And this comes in part from something that Blake Lively has said in interviews, but I'm I'm guessing this might be maybe where the author is coming from. It reminds me of the abused parent who has an abused child, and the child goes to the parent and says, this happened to me. And they say, that happened to me too.
Josué:Get over it. Right? In the sense that the movie is showing Blake Lively's comments are like, this doesn't have to this abuse doesn't define her. She is so much more than this. And what I'm hearing is you'll get over it and you'll be stronger at the other end and so what.
Josué:Right? Like, so what you gotta be it doesn't matter. Like, that doesn't have to define you. But it completely ignores that it can affect you and how it affects you. And, and it's like you're purposefully omitting the entire the entire spectrum of how.
Link:That's the romanticization, right? Is that it would be so simple and easy. And then the the orchestral music starts up in the credits roll, and it's great. And it's like, wow, not at all, like, real life at all.
Josué:She just, like, raises her fist in the air. And it's like, yeah, she's over it. It's good. Now she can achieve whatever she wants.
Lara:Didn't she skipped she didn't have to go to years and years of therapy to work through things.
Josué:Yeah. Which I'm not sure, but I think she just ends up with another guy at the end of the movie. And then that's the setup for the next
Lara:Wouldn't wouldn't be surprised. I don't know. Wouldn't be surprised.
Josué:Yeah. Again, we haven't seen this. We haven't. We haven't talked.
Lara:Well, maybe it's more like interview with the vampire than we thought.
Josué:Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. They get rid of the
Link:bugs and get it done again. Blake Lively a vampire the whole time?
Josué:That's why Justin Baldoni didn't like it. He didn't like the edits where everybody was a vampire. He's like, that's not that's not
Lara:how Yeah. I want to film the
Josué:Does. Does. Alright. Closing thoughts. Mark.
Marc:I I think that this was a a really great topic for us to talk about. I do wish that I had a little bit more to bring or to discuss. But I think ultimately, for me, a lot of this was more just kind of listening and taking this in because I don't have too much experience with consider, like dealing with media that talks and deals with these particular topics. I feel like mine was very limited. So to me, just kind of taking in everybody's thoughts and hearing the discussion, I think was very informative, very enlightening for me.
Josué:Laura?
Lara:I think these conversations are important to have. And I think having examples to be able to point to when you are experiencing something like this or have a partner that has experienced something like this to try and understand. Think I mean, that's what we're all about here. So yeah. Yeah.
Lara:Link?
Link:I mean, you know, say say what you will about The Sense With Us. I do think that it is starting some conversations that we wouldn't be having otherwise, and I think that's pretty swell. I do wanna add a couple of video game recommendations that touch on these topics. A twenty seventeen puzzle game on on phone and other platforms, it's called a normal lost phone. And that is you are like going through someone's lost phone trying to like figure out what happened and and all that stuff.
Link:Very cool little shorty indie game. I can't remember if I played that one or if I played one of the sequels, but it was it was cool to play that. And then another little indie game that is available for free on itch.io called Last Call. I have not played this one, but I've heard really good things about it. It's another it's an indie game by Nina Freeman who has done a bunch of really cool indie games.
Link:But this is a you are going through, like, burning boxes of poetry and you speak to the game and you you say things like, I believe you and and and validations and stuff like that as the the game mechanic interaction, which is really cool, I think. But as a way to sort of experience like catharsis of processing the information, the emotions of an abusive relationship. I think that video games can be an interesting space to talk about this kind of stuff because of the mechanics of it. Silent Hill two does have this touches on this topic, but I don't I don't think it is. I I it's it's too much focused on the abuser versus the person who got abused.
Link:So I don't know if that is a good a good thing to point to, but it does touch on the topic.
Lara:And it's coming it's coming to a place
Link:No. No. It's not. No. Mm-mm.
Link:No. Yeah. Just a couple couple video games on there too.
Josué:Yeah. I don't if you tell me that a movie or a game or anything is about domestic violence, I don't wanna watch that. That's not that's
Lara:not a feeling.
Josué:But which, I mean, you know, we've said this many times before,
Link:but it's I think these are usually, like, at least for a normal Lost Phone, it is it is told to you is like this is like a mystery puzzle game that you are like solving a mystery and then it gives you like content warning topics about interpersonal abuse and suicide attempts and it it gives you the the content warning without being like, this is a game about being abused. It's like, oh, okay. I don't wanna play that.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well and that's my point. Right?
Josué:Like, oh, you told me interview with the vampire is good. I'm gonna be like, oh, okay. Yeah. No. I remember the old movie.
Josué:My parents like the books. I'll go check it out. And then it's in there. Right? It's it's in Silent Hill two.
Josué:It's in other places. That's why I think it's important that that it comes up so that we so that we people are exposed to it. So we so it is a conversation starter. And so I'm as always, I'm happy to to have you guys to be able to talk to you about that stuff. And and then as we continue to collect examples, To touch on a medium that we haven't touched on yet, Kendrick Lamar has an album called Mr.
Josué:Morale and the Big Steppers. The whole album is basically he went to to therapy for years to process a whole bunch of stuff from his childhood and his life, and he made an album that covers a lot of that. And there's one song called We Cry Together. And the video for it is like a six minute mini documentary music video that's all about domestic violence. And so I think we've covered comic books, video games, movies, TV, and music.
Josué:So there's another example of it. And and, yeah, that's one of those things where it's like, oh, the new Kendrick Lamar album is out. I was so excited, and I listened to it. This is I think it's 2017. I'm not sure.
Josué:And then I listened to it. I was I was so depressed afterward. I was like, I did not expect this. But it's like, oh,
Link:does this album come with content warning?
Josué:That's a good question. Like, I don't know other than the explicit label.
Link:Follow-up question. Does the explicit label count?
Lara:Right. Right. Oh, man.
Josué:I'm sorry. Someone just printed something remotely right next to me. It's a huge printer. So I didn't hear the last thing that you said. Oh, the content warning.
Josué:Yeah. Other than the explicit label, have no idea. But, I know now. So every time I go back, there's a few songs that I still like from it, but that was an adventure to listen to it the first time. Yeah.
Josué:Okay. All right. So, let us know your thoughts on this. An easy topic. Check out some of the recommendations we've made or some of the things that we've talked about.
Josué:Let us know if any of these have resonated with you or if you think might be helpful for people in your life or your clients, your students. For to do that, visit our community spaces, links in the show notes. For more geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good, and we'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter visit geektherapy.org
