Ghosts & Grief
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Your key therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona, and I'm joined by Lara Taylor. Hey. Mark Cuiriz.
Josué:Hello. And Link Keller. What's up? What's up to you? Hi, everybody.
Josué:Today is my turn, and it's spooky season. And I don't think we've ever talked about ghosts, and I I I don't think that I've ever used ghosts in any sort of context with clients either. But I had a I had a thought this week after watching, or I guess last week when I was watching a Star Wars show. And at the end of the show, and and something that's part of Star Wars in in general, is this idea of force ghosts, Right? Where this this someone who has died is able to come back.
Josué:And for the most part, it's been, like, observational. You know, they're, like, checking in on things, but there have been more examples lately where they're, like, so strong in the force that they can come back and talk to you and train you and do all this kind of stuff. And when I saw that, I was I was very surprised when I saw this forced ghost. I never thought of this before, but my mom died about six months ago. And I was like, shit.
Josué:Like, I wish forced ghosts were real. Like, I wonder what she would say or what she would she would she would do in in this situation or she could come back and instead of haunting, just like, oh, you know, definitely just come back noncorporeal and and and talk to you. And so that that got my my mind racing about about ghosts in general and all the different versions of it. And I think it's interesting. Right?
Josué:The only way the only reason why this is, like, tied to ghosts at all is because Star Wars calls them Force Ghosts. They could have called them Force something else, and it wouldn't have made me think of that. So so that brings me to my first question for to to all of you. I think it would be helpful if we define what a ghost is. How would you define ghosts?
Marc:I I'm I'm not gonna lie. I was not expecting that to be the first question.
Lara:It makes
Marc:sense Like, that it it yeah. It makes it it tracks. It makes sense that that'd be the first question, but it was not the first question was expecting.
Josué:Settings of context. So Yeah. Mark, what how would you define ghosts?
Marc:Yeah. Since I spoke first. For me, that's I something I never really thought about. Like, what what defines a ghost? I'm gonna have to pass the torch on this one because I I can't even begin to explain or even comprehend, like, how how do I describe what a ghost is?
Lara:How would you describe it to a child?
Marc:It's a spooky thing. No. I think it's if I had to define what a ghost is, in in my in my interpretation of it, I think it's more so the residual energy of a particular person or group of people depending on the the context and the circumstance.
Josué:That's my definition. Residual energy. Mhmm. Okay. Okay.
Josué:Lars, what how would you define ghost?
Lara:I kind of feel like that's a good place to start. Some residual energy of somebody who's died that's here in our world.
Josué:Okay.
Lara:I don't know. It's interesting because, like, it's like, how do you define a vampire? There's a million different, like, depending on which lore you go with. Like, there's different things. Like, some people say a ghost has to have unfinished business.
Lara:Sometimes it has to be bad unfinished business rather than good unfinished business. There's different lores about how they can come and go. There's days where spirits from the afterlife can come here and the veil is thin. But when it comes down to it, I think Mark kind of nailed things on the head with, like, a residual energy or, I guess, the essence of a person who's past kinda coming to our present.
Josué:Okay. Link, how would you define ghost? What is ghost?
Link:What is ghost? I mean, I I yeah. I think I think, functionally, ghosts are the intangible spirit energy of a dead person.
Josué:Okay. Okay. Now do you all believe in ghosts? Like, Link, do you believe in in in ghosts?
Link:No. Not not really. In that, I've never had any sort of ghosty experience that has made me feel like I should question it in that way. I do 100% believe that there are things that my human body is not capable of understanding or knowing or perceiving with the the perceptive qualities of my human body. But whether or not that's ghosts in the way that many cultures talk about ghosts, I I don't know that they're related at all.
Josué:Lara, do you believe in ghosts?
Lara:I think for me, it's much like the question of do you believe in aliens? Like, I think there's something. I just don't know what that answer is. There are plenty
Josué:of things How why wait. Why is ghosts like aliens?
Lara:Because like, people ask, do you believe in aliens? And it's like, for me, it's like, yes. I think there are things out there that I don't I can't see with my eyes. It would be kinda foolish to assume. I don't know if ghosts are the way that they're often portrayed in, like, say, Star Wars force ghosts or, like, the actual people.
Lara:I don't know if it's, like
Josué:Or Casper or the
Lara:Or Casper or something like that. Like, I don't know if it's just energy. I mean, you can see it. Like, I remember watching a lot of paranormal activity, like, paranormal, like, not well, I watched those movies, the paranormal activity movies, but, like, paranormal hunters and, like, yeah, paranormal state and things like that where they go and like, look for these things. And it's re it's reality TV.
Lara:It's probably staged, but who knows? I don't I don't know.
Josué:You're undecided.
Lara:I'm undecided, but leaning towards yeah, there are things that are unexplained. And I would like to hope that even if people aren't here specifically walking around or floating around or whatever that, like, people's essences kind of live on.
Josué:Okay.
Lara:I kinda like that idea.
Josué:Mark, do you believe in ghosts?
Marc:So this is something that I kinda go back and forth on. When I was younger, I think definitely yes. I remember even having my own experience with what I would say is more, like, paranormal stuff. And I also watched a lot of, like, those reality, like, ghost hunting shows. That was something my mom and I did quite a lot growing up as well.
Marc:So I kinda had that in my head. And then as I got older, I became a lot more skeptical. And currently, I would say, yes. I I lean again more towards yes, but not in the traditional sense like Laura like Laura said about, like, you know, like, it's portrayed in in media, but more like in the sense of, like, that energy or that essence is is there. I still think that that like, because, you know, when you think about it, you know, energy is not it it just transfers, but I think some of it kinda still stays in in sometimes that energy can still manifest those characteristics.
Marc:But, again, that could also just be our brains trying to comprehend something that we can't perceive simply just because we lack the functioning to be able to do that. So I I'm I'm like Laura. I lean more towards yes right now, but, you know, that could always change.
Josué:Okay. Okay.
Link:And what about you?
Josué:I do not believe in ghosts. I do not. But this goes into, like, a whole, like, what is your beliefs? What is the cosmology in your mind about how the world works? And are there souls and spirits?
Josué:And, like, what are what are what are people made of? So but I don't believe in in ghosts or in, like, spirits hanging around or anything like that. But as far as definition, I would I would go with, like, yeah, like, there's a spirit or or a soul or or not so much an essence to me. It would be like something a little more solidified that is hanging out, just hanging out. So so with these definitions, that's pretty broad.
Josué:I think I think it covers a whole bunch of stuff. So so why why do you think and this is more of a link question. I'm curious. But anybody can jump in. Like, why are there so many ghost stories?
Josué:Like, why do we why do people like ghost stories? What do you think?
Link:Grappling with our own mortality is really fucking hard. So, stories are a way that we cope with that.
Josué:So but, like, I I feel like the popularity of ghost movies are usually not in a good way. Like, there are very few hauntings or ghost stories that are, like, if not trying to be scary or not try not in a bad way. Does that do you agree with that?
Link:I think ghosts show up more in horror and stuff because horror tends to discuss death in a way that a lot of other genres don't. And so ghosts and getting into like afterlife stuff and the horror of bad deaths and all of those things is something that horror is well equipped to discuss, and so it shows up there more.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I think, like, some of the, like, the the main tropes for ghosts are, like I think you mentioned, Mark, like, unfinished business. What else? People being stuck for some reason, you know, and doesn't just have to be
Link:It's very often
Josué:unfinished business.
Link:Unfinished business, violent deaths,
Lara:or both at the same time.
Link:Those tend to come up a lot. Also, being tied to, like, places where it's not so much, like, how a person died, but if they died in a specific physical geographical location, like, that's where the ghosts come from.
Josué:Yeah.
Link:Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. I do I do like me a good like, I can only think of a few kind of either funny or positive kinda ghost experiences. Not not so much, like, positive. What is what is the show where the vampire, the werewolf, and, like, they all live together? Do you remember this?
Josué:There's, a British version in American
Lara:Being human?
Josué:Being human, the one. Right? Where there's a ghost and she's she's cool. She just I mean, I I know that there's some reason why she can't leave. Was she just like another roommate just hanging out Mhmm.
Josué:Living her life?
Link:That is one of my favorite tropes is the the ghost roommate. They did they did that in Angel, the Buffy, the vampire slayer spin off show. Cordelia gets a really great apartment in LA, and it's like, how could you possibly afford this? It's like, well, it's haunted. But then it turns out the ghost is actually a pretty pretty good housemate.
Link:Like, yeah, if you don't get a choice, like, that's not too bad, Gordy. You did good.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Which other ones? Can you remember can you think of any other ghosts like that?
Lara:Recently, I watched the the new Haunted Mansion movie Mhmm. That came out this year. Obviously, it it's about a haunting, and there's some evil ghosts and stuff in the movie. But there's also like this idea of like good, like ghosts that aren't out to get you. And they came up with this concept that I actually really liked and have used with clients called a ghost wink.
Lara:And it's someone who has passed, whether they're an actual ghost like or their spirit is just they're like when something comes in, comes across your path that reminds you of that person or it feels like serendipitous. Right? It's a ghost wink. It's them sending something to show you that they're still thinking about you and they're still around and they love you. In a movie, there's something about like a cat and the name of the cat is something that reminded them of the person they lost.
Lara:So I kind of I kind of like that idea of like your brain is trying to make sense of things. But like, sometimes it's like, oh, this thing happens that I'm not even thinking about an anniversary date or something, and something reminds me of my mom. And I'm like, oh, she just wanted to remind me that I was that that she's there, you know?
Josué:Yeah. And and that feels like
Lara:It feels good. It feels good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lara:Rather than like some terrifying ghost trying to, like, haunt me, which I had an ex who told me when she was staying at my house one time and I was I was not home. She said that in the middle of the night, my desk chair spun around, and my mom was in the chair. And then she, like, she had to flip my mom's photo down in the room. And I was like, are you serious right now? This is not true.
Link:Why would my mom talk to you?
Lara:Why would my mom yeah. And not me.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. So Oh, that's interesting. I like the ghost wink thing. Right?
Josué:It feels like like like a reframing of something reminds you of somebody that that passed. It could be could just be a reminder and and be painful, or it could be
Lara:It could be a way of staying connected.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, she, you know, checking in on me or or Mhmm.
Josué:So keep an eye out.
Lara:Reminding you to to think of the good, reminding you to, like, laugh about something.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that reframing.
Josué:Your other story though.
Lara:Yeah. That
Josué:one. That's
Lara:that's weird. That's the that's the more that's the more common ghost story.
Josué:I I mean, I've I've heard people who are, like, upset because they can't see a ghost that other people can see. Right? Like Mhmm. Like, I don't know. I we kinda messed up if someone came over and, like, saw my mom's ghost and I'm like, shit.
Josué:Is it because I don't believe in ghosts that I didn't see it? Like, is she actually there? That would suck.
Lara:Well, if your mom scared somebody you didn't like, that's probably a ghost wink.
Josué:That is definitely
Lara:a ghost wink.
Josué:For sure. For sure. It's like, mom mom provided her opinion.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Did you did you just not believe the story?
Lara:I did not believe the story.
Josué:That's it as a ghostwink. No.
Lara:I did not believe the story whatsoever.
Josué:Not even in hindsight. No.
Link:You're like, my mom's never spun around in a chair. How dare you? She was a two feet on the ground kind of lady.
Lara:Yeah. It was it was a wild story in a series of a lot of wild stories that I didn't believe. So made it less plausible.
Josué:Got it. Got it. It's funny. I I I do again, I do like this idea of the of, like, the helpful ghost. Like, I don't I don't like the I don't like the concept of kind of half in, half out, having to move a glass or, like, you know, where everything's very cryptic.
Josué:It's like, you know, it's right in the fog on the mirror or something like that.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Where it's more like you know, again, I I like that idea of the this helpful ghost. I saw I was watching a show I was watching a fantasy show recently, and there was this item that called forth a bunch of spirits, kind of like oh, like in like in Breath of the Wild, right, where there is, like, the champions and, like yeah. They're, their spirits are still around and they can and they can help you out in a way after you beat a dungeon and Mhmm. And and earn it. But then you can right.
Josué:Like, they're they're they still have a message for you. They've been they've been kinda waiting around to to give you something. That kind of idea, like, I like it. Like, I can imagine with with a with a client or even, like, just, you know, like, if you're journaling a story or something like that for yourself, creating some kind of version of the person who's passed that would be like that like like the champion, like a helpful person. Like, what what could they provide?
Josué:I think probably my favorite example of that is in the game brothers a tale of two sons. Like, right, like, there's a
Lara:game.
Josué:Yep. And it's like that that moment for me is, like, the the payoff. Right? Like, you lose. You're playing as these two brothers the entire game, and then one of them dies.
Josué:And then you have to keep playing as one, just one brother. But then it gets to a point where, like, you come across an obstacle that you can't do on your own that you did before with your brother. And so if you actually use the same buttons as before, it's like it's like your brother's not there, but, like, you remember him. And, like like, he he he his memory gives you the the the energy that you need to move forward and and overcome these obstacles on your own. So I really like that that idea.
Josué:And, again, it's something I I've been I've been thinking about personally. Actually, it's been it's been yeah. Today's gonna be, like, my therapy for sure. My my mom didn't have a lot of money, And she when she passed away, it was like a retirement account that had a little bit in it, and she split that up between me and my two sisters. And then I was laid off recently.
Josué:And so money's like I'm freaking out about money and stuff. And then it turned out that my mom had, like, another bank account with a little bit of money in it. And so, like, days after I I was laid off, I got a check-in the mail from from my mom's account, and it has been, like, destroying me. The fact that my mom it feels like my mom is helping even though she's not and like, I know, I know that like, that check could have come at any time. It could have come could have come months ago.
Josué:It could have come a year from now. It just happened to come at this exact time. So it feels serendipitous. Right? It feels like that ghost wink kind of thing.
Josué:And I can't tell if it makes me more sad or happy that it happened this way. Like, the story that I I'm telling myself in my head changes from time to time, but I keep leaning more towards, like, the ghost wank. So I was like, she's helping me even though she's she's not around anymore. And that's, like, that's pretty comforting. You know?
Josué:If I can again, I keep going back and forth. If I can reframe it and stay in that in that, like, look, my mom is helping me now. It feels a lot better than, shit, my mom had to die, you know, for me to, like, get this money or something like that. Right? Like, I keep going back and forth, but I can see the more positive version of it if I go into creating a story about that.
Josué:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of the that's, I think, like, the power of what we're talking about. Right?
Josué:Like, to take these stories and even make that story in my mind is is powerful. And so, like, to help people be able to reframe a story like that or to see a version of a story that is that has that kind of positive spin is is I think I think can can be really helpful.
Lara:Yeah. And to have a positive spin in a way that it's not it doesn't necessarily sound like toxic positivity. Right? It doesn't sound like, oh, everything's fine. It's like, no, your mom's still gone and she's looking out for you.
Lara:Yeah. Right. Through a story you made yourself.
Josué:And also that it's like like not delusional. Mhmm. Right? There's like a I guess there's a hopefully, it's not a fine fine line, right, between the two. But because, I mean, that's that's that's something that happens that happens as well.
Josué:Right? It's like everything bad that's happening to you. I've been cursed. It's, you know, somebody is out to get me. I had a lot of stuff like that in my family where, you know, something bad would happen and they were like, oh, there's some something going on or there was some, you know, some witchcraft or someone did did a thing.
Josué:It's like, today, you're just unlucky.
Lara:Listen. This stuff happens all the time. Like, my mom had a necklace that she wore every day of her every day that I can remember of her adult life. This opal necklace, which is weird because it's not her birthstone, but she really liked it. And since she died, we haven't been able to find it.
Lara:And every couple of years, I kind of bring it up and I'm like, hey, do we know what happened to it? And maybe it had gone with her other jewelry to her best friend. And when her best friend died, it didn't come back with the rest of the jewelry. So we didn't we didn't know what happened to it. And I think I asked about it like two years ago.
Lara:And my sister mentioned, you know, maybe because she was wearing it when she passed, maybe it got lost in the shuffle with the paramedics and things. I asked about it again Labor Day weekend this year. And a week ago, my sister sends me a and my sister sends me and my dad a text with a picture of this necklace without the chain. It's just a charm. She wasn't looking for it through my mom's stuff.
Lara:She was going through another bag of stuff to go looking for something. It had not the bag that it was in was or was not anything that had to do with mom or any of her personal belongings.
Josué:Okay.
Lara:And she found it. And I'm like, that's a ghost wink. Because it was something that was really important to her, and I didn't like, it's a memory I had. Now my sister and I have to fight over who's going get it. But yeah, it's something that I remember vividly and could have drawn.
Lara:And I don't have that many things that I can remember that vividly. And it's because she wore it every day. So it was just weird that this year, she just happens to send me this ghost wink.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lara:It would be one thing it would it would feel a lot different if my sister was actually looking, like, through the boxes of jewelry and through the the things that were hers, but it was not related at all. And a month later, she shows up.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. But, like, it's a ghost swing because it's like, hey, Jenna. You were looking for this, and it's there. And, like, you know, now you're, like it feels like that.
Josué:It doesn't feel like it materialized out of nowhere. Mhmm. It was magic or
Lara:No.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Little bit. A little bit?
Lara:Just a little bit of magic. Just a little bit.
Link:Just a little bit.
Lara:But it didn't I don't like materialize. The of
Link:a story, right? Like, we know stories aren't real. But they're meaningful to us because of how we use them and how they take up space in our life. They become real. So it's like, that's that's the magic.
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:This is I I think this this topic gets a little uncomfortable for me when because of religious trauma. Right? It's like, in religion, so many things are attributed. Like, they're out of your control. Right?
Josué:It's like or or or it's a consequence. Right? Like, I did this, and so I'm being punished. Or I did this, and that's why good things are happening. Or it wasn't me.
Josué:You know, it was God or a demon or an angel and things like that. And there's, like, no there's, like, this lack of accountability and responsibility for a lot of stuff. But then take that to an extreme, and it's like, you know, you just start explaining everything or you can explain anything by through these through these magic rules from from the the religion. So it kind of it kind of like, I said the word delusion earlier. Right?
Josué:But it's like, oh, you know, if it's religion, it's not delusional. But if it's not religion, we could call it delusional. This is a sensitive subject for me.
Lara:It's also very interesting because going through school, I was taught not to just assume somebody is delusional because they believe in ghosts, because it might not just be a religion thing. It can be a cultural thing. There's plenty of people who believe in ghosts. Yeah. Like I mentioned earlier, there's days where the dead are supposed to come visit us, you know?
Lara:Day of the dead, we've got this is the biggest one I can think of. And whole groups of people putting out altars to bring their their dead family to them to visit, to give them some comfort.
Josué:Yeah.
Link:I think there's, like, a lot of overlap, but there is, like, some distinction in, like, just general, like, I believe in ghosts and then, like, the more cultural, like, ancestor worship aspect that is in a lot of cultures, not necessarily Christianity with that that ends. But lots of other other cultures have a lot of, like it's not like a ghostly form shows up to, like, move your shit. But it's like, no. The entire weight of everyone whose life has funneled down into this moment in time where you exist, those are more connected than disconnected.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:And some of those customs are, one direction, and some of them are bidirectional.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Right? It's like, I'm doing an offering or I'm doing, you know, I'm doing something to honor somebody who is on the other side or they're in heaven or they're in somewhere else. And this is something, like, they're not necessarily coming over and having the milk and cookies that you're putting out. Right? It's Mark, you've been quiet.
Josué:Any thoughts on on this?
Marc:Well, I mean, I've just been kinda listening just because, you know, for me, I like I said earlier, I've always kind of grappled with the idea of ghosts and, you know, whether or not I believe that they truly exist. I think I kind of come from that same boat where a lot of my skepticism on ghosts and spirits and all that sort of came when I started kind of branching out in terms of how I chose to identify in terms of religion because, you know, I grew up primarily Catholic and then switched then was, like, more of a a Baptist, and then I was just kind of all over the place. So for me, the idea and concepts of ghosts, like, I grew up with that idea of, like, oh, you know, if you see, like, a a cardinal, then that's, like, a sign that somebody that's past is is coming over and watching over you. Or, like, hey. They're coming by to say hi.
Marc:Just, like, to remind you that they're that they're there and they're looking out for you, things like that. And growing up with that piece of it, like, I I always felt like that kinda stuck with me of, like, of, like, the the ghost rings that you guys that we've been talking about. So, like, that sort of stuff I I believe in, and I I can I see all those sorts of things, and and it kind of helps put that little bit of a positive spin on it instead of just kinda, like, the idea of, like, oh, damn? I I tripped at work. Someone must have cursed me.
Marc:You know? Nothing like that. But I think I I take a look at the idea of, like, ghosts and how we, like, interact with it. And I don't know why I started doing it as more of, like, this scientific way of looking at it of, like, just taking a look at looking at it as this is just residual energy or, like like, you know how some people have, like, very, like, gravitating personalities or they just have, like, big auras and, like, you're naturally drawn to people or, like, they have a very commanding presence. To me, like, if someone like that or, you know, everybody kinda has that that type of energy, but the bigger it is, you know, when when they die, you know, depend and and it varies.
Marc:You know? It could be, like, just in the area, the location of where they died, or it could be like a a place or an area that they're very heavily connected to. Like, that energy returns to that area because that to them is like a sense of home or a sense of belonging. And that's where you can you know, when people say like, oh, I I saw something or I heard somebody. I think it's really just like that energy that is able to kind of convert itself and and present itself in a way that, like, we interpret it as we we're hearing something, we're seeing something, or, you know, we we get that impression that somebody's here or, you know, it's like a cat and your shit gets knocked over.
Marc:You know, it's it could be could be either or. But so my my view of ghosts and and spirits and stuff is very I don't know. It's very, I don't wanna say scientific because it's but, like, that's just kinda like my viewpoint of it. Like, it's very
Josué:are rules.
Marc:Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.
Josué:Okay. Yeah. Okay. I like it. That's allowed.
Josué:That's fine. Yeah. There any elaborate rules that, like, exceptions and
Marc:Oh, and that's the thing too is that, like, the idea of ghosts and cells, like, there's so many things and, like, there there's all these different, like, possibilities of things that could happen. And, I mean, it's one of those things where nobody can tell you you're wrong, so you could literally make up any rule.
Josué:And Yeah. But they're the ones you believe. Right? Like, can Yeah. Like animals have ghosts?
Josué:Can pets?
Marc:I do I do believe so. I do believe that to in my eyes, any sort of living creature has the capability of of being a a ghost or a spirit or or whatever because that energy is still there. It's just a lot of the times people don't tend to associate it with animals because people, you know, people are like, we are able to better understand people or sometimes, you know, if we're hearing something, we tend to just automatically assume that it's it's a human. But I do think that animals, especially if you're really bonded with your animal, and you guys really have that understanding that the the energy left over when they die will still manifest itself and still present itself in a way to remind you that, like, hey. There's still like, that energy is still there.
Marc:They're not there, but the energy still is. And then that's when people can create the stories that they tell themselves like, they're there. They're looking out for me. Or hey, they're they're reminding me that they're still they're still here. And I think sometimes like you hear stories of like people who have pets that pass away and then they get a new animal and that new animal is acting or knows how to do things that their old pet did.
Marc:And they're like, that's, you know, my old pet is like, you know, with them guiding them of like, this is what they used to do that I really enjoyed. Now they're doing it. I think it's just they're more in tune with that energy. So they pick up on it. And that's why they kinda can sometimes do things that they weren't taught to do, but like the old animal, the old pet would do.
Lara:Thank you, Mark, for putting that idea back in my head because when we got Albus after Vader died, we like, he was really drawn. We still have the box that we took Vader to the vet when we had to put her down and have not washed the towel since then. And he is drawn to it all the time. And it's like this scientifically, know it's a smell that's very strong. He doesn't he doesn't and it's a cat that he's never seen.
Lara:Like, it makes sense. But now it's like, he's drawn to her, and he started out after like, six months or so, he started definitely acting like she did in some ways, and completely different in other ways, And that is just his personality, but also, like, maybe she is guiding him. I don't know.
Marc:So, like, that's, like, my view on just kinda how, like, ghosts and spirits are in general. And then as I kinda watched, like, ghost adventures and and, like, those sort of reality ghost shows, like, yeah, I know, like, a lot of it is is probably just hype and they're probably just, you know, playing it up for the cameras. I think the more, like, I I understood their the the scientific part of it and, like, their their tools that they use to measure these things, the more I kinda became convinced that, like, okay. No. No.
Marc:No. I don't think these are, like like, it's not like the way that we see it of, like, no. This is, an actual, like, you know, human silhouette that's, like, coming here and and trying to have a conversation with you or trying to get you to leave or whatever. But more so that, like, this is just leftover energy that is staying in this particular spot. And when it gets kinda like when when you have things that can kind of, like, either amplify that energy or can kind of interact with it in some way, that's when it it starts manifesting itself.
Marc:But again, that's also, like, subjective because every person's gonna perceive that differently, perceive that energy differently, interpret that energy differently. And some people might see something, some people might not.
Josué:So so it's like an echo and, like, it doesn't have it's not sentient and it doesn't have, like it's not good or bad. It doesn't have any intention. It's just
Marc:Yeah. I think a lot of times, people will put that out there and they're interpreting it as either some form of sentience or they're they're placing it in that good or bad category. Like and and this is just the most recent example of, like, you know, when I was in Vegas for for the Taylor Swift concert, I went to the haunted museum. And, I mean, I hear so many people saying that, you know, they go into this and, you know, they come out because they and and they're, like, impacted because they have these experiences because these items are classified as as being really haunted or, like, having that energy attached to that those particular objects. And I go through this whole tour.
Marc:It's two hour long tour, and I didn't have any sort of, like, interaction like that. I didn't have an experience like that. But, you know, they show clips of actual people going through the tour and actually having experiences of, you know, passing out or freaking out or, you know, people showing like they have scratch marks, things like that. And again, I I think it's just how you choose to interpret and how you choose to interact with that energy. I think because I went in with the expectation of like, alright, I want something like that to happen.
Marc:My energy, and this is just my interpretation of it, that I think it's just because of how I chose to go into the tour, I wasn't gonna be as affected by it because I knew what was going on and I was purposely trying to do it. So I screwed it up. I I screwed it up for myself. But my wife, when she went in, she was absolutely terrified. And while she didn't report any experience or actually, that's a lie because she thinks that she heard a cat meowing in the in the actual like, when we were, like, in one of the waiting areas.
Marc:I'm like, no. I'm pretty sure that was, like, a high school boy just, in the upstairs area just being being a goof. And she's like, no. No. No.
Marc:I heard a cat.
Josué:So
Link:Dear dear friend of the show, Jessica, did want me to say to you guys that, she believes if you are looking for a ghost experience, that reduces the likelihood of you having a ghost experience.
Josué:Mhmm. So That's also a mark rule. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm.
Marc:But also there were there was a lot of things that I wanted to do with that tour that, like, one, you had to pay extra to get, like, the the upgraded pass to it. And two, even if I did do that, my wife would not let me. She's like, no. No. No.
Marc:You're not even gonna I don't even wanna risk you bringing anything home or having anything attached to you. And it's funny because going into it or, like, when we've had conversations about ghosts and stuff like that, that was something that she didn't necessarily believe in either. But I think the more, like, this became a reality of, like, where we're gonna go and do this museum, the more she started to believe. And I'm like, okay. Maybe maybe there's some truth to this.
Marc:Maybe there's some merit to it.
Josué:Have you explained to her your entire, like you have clearly defined rules
Lara:on how the torrents.
Marc:I've yeah. Then but, again, like, this is just that's just how I interpret it.
Lara:And so Is it is are Marx clearly defined rules the rules? What
Josué:I mean, I'm yeah. No. It's who knows? But does does your wife, like what was her reaction to knowing that you clearly thought
Marc:about this? In one ear in one ear and not the other.
Josué:Okay. Just
Marc:she's I she does not like the the idea she does not like the topic of ghosts, talking about ghosts, or anything like that. So we typically do not discuss ghosts like that. Okay. In in that in this type of depth or in this type of detail like Okay. We we gender generally avoid it.
Marc:Okay. Okay.
Lara:I like, that's so funny. Nina also does not like talking about ghosts and stuff like that because she hates scary things because her imagination goes kinda wild. I used to watch like those obviously fake, like, medium shows where the guy would walk around and be like,
Link:I'm Does anybody know somebody who's dead who is also named Mark?
Lara:Exactly. Like, I know 30 dead Mark.
Link:Oh my god. Yeah. Mhmm.
Lara:Yeah. I used to watch that stuff. I I used to love telling ghost stories at camp. We we had a camp ghost story of a a a it was the guy named Smiley would got cut by a like, a raccoon attacked him, and he got, like, cut ear to ear. And it scared the the crap out of the children.
Link:And then he had a hook for a head.
Lara:A hook for a head. Yes. So so good. But I I was I've always liked this kind of stuff. Scary Stories to Zelle in the Dark were my favorite books as a kid.
Lara:Looking back on that now, those are not meant those should not have children's books. I
Link:I disagree. Those are perfect for kids.
Lara:Maybe the books are great. The books are great. The drawings, terrifying. The art I think that's I think that's
Link:important in a in a child's education to get locked up by ink ink illustrations. So
Lara:I've always kinda yeah. Always kinda like this stuff. Whether I believe it or believe certain stories are real or not, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure some of them help people. We had a guy at camp who the cook at camp, his son died in a car accident, like, only, like, two minutes down the road.
Lara:And there weren't any crows or ravens around camp until his son died. And then that summer, a crow shows up or a raven. Well, I can't remember what he said. But then, he's like, that's my son. And then, he's kind of felt like after that crow or raven had all the had the family, and there was more, and there were more.
Lara:He's like it's like he's around me and keeping an eye on me, because this kid's favorite animal was, whatever it was, probably Raven. And it helps him feel better and connected. We got the really scary spooky stuff and the good all in one. Kinda creeps me out when that many crows are around camp right now, though.
Josué:I mean, it sounds like there weren't that many crows before,
Marc:but No.
Josué:Right. Sometimes you just don't realize something until later.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Also, was I read a book recently that mentioned statistics of how often people hallucinate, like, just in general. Like, everybody has visual and auditory hallucinations, and right there, what we're talking about is, like, what meaning you attribute to that stuff Mhmm. And how you can attribute again, and how it can even be comforting and and healing in a way if you can come up with a positive spin to to what's happening. Right? Like, reframe it in a positive way versus being haunted.
Josué:So, Larry, you just said that you like these stories. Do you have any favorite, like, ghost stories, movies, books?
Lara:Some of my favorite know it's gonna be like, a little bit of recency bias, like, Haunting on Hill House is one of my It favorite ghosty really got me.
Josué:It's a
Lara:good one. Literally, the episode titled Bent Neck Lady, I walk out of our condo door to go open the food, I think, the door for our food delivery, and the light is flickering outside. I said, nope. Try calling again because I will buzz you in. Just keep trying.
Lara:I'm not going downstairs. Yeah. But that I love those. I love those. Yeah.
Lara:Okay.
Josué:Mark, do you have any favorites?
Marc:I was debating on whether or not I wanted to be jokey about it. So for me, like, I'm also kind of like not a huge, like, like a horror person. Spooky things, not my jam, but I'm trying to think of like a legitimate, like, story that or, like, a something that, like, I'm like, yep, that's it. Aside from what I talked about with Ghost Adventures. But really, the only thing that comes to mind immediately is Danny Phantom.
Marc:Like like, that's it. Like, that's that's my bread and butter right there in terms of, like, ghost stuff even though it's not it is, but also not really. It's just a fun time.
Josué:It is and it's not really? It's okay.
Marc:Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:Link, do you have any favorite ghost stories?
Link:I've got a whole bunch. So if you if you have a specific one, you wanna go first, and then I'll just shotgun spray my mine or whatever you're feeling.
Josué:Look. I don't I don't I don't like scary stuff too much either. But I do enjoy a horror movie every now and then. I don't know. Like, over the last few years, like, I really enjoyed the conjuring movies.
Josué:I thought that those are those are good. But, like, in terms of, like, fun fun for me, like, honestly, I like the Ghostbusters. I love the I love the the lore in those stories. I like all four movies. Thank you.
Josué:And the both cartoon series.
Lara:You even like the Slimer one.
Josué:I like I like yeah. Yeah. Well, I I don't know. There were maybe. Yeah.
Josué:Sure. I like Slimer. Mhmm. He's disgusting. Yes.
Josué:Sometimes he's funny. Sometimes he's just terrible. But I like I like that there's, like, control in that in that world as as in in that I mean, I think that's a big part of hauntings and and ghost stories. Right? That that there's, like, some way to stop it, whether it's whether they're friendly ghosts and and they just they're just tied to a place and they wanna go or they're scary ghosts and, you know, there's a way to to fight it and get rid of them.
Josué:I liked in Ghostbusters that there was all there's a lot of science behind it. There was technology that we could use to to kinda put them away. That's like a fun version of it for me. And I've been watching an anime called Jujutsu Kaizen, where it's one of those where, like, the these, like, monster demon ghost things, like, they're created by negativity in humans. And so, like, there's a lot of that.
Josué:So there's a lot of really bad these really bad monsters that come through. But it's more like it's not so much like people. It's more like it's it's a lot like your energy, theory, Mark, but it's like then that energy becomes something. So if there there was, like, a massacre in a place, like, all of that negative energy becomes an entity that is not human. And then the demon hunters can go fuck them up.
Josué:Yeah. So those are some some of the ones I've I've liked lately. Well,
Link:one of my favorite ghost movies is The Sixth Sense. I think that's a classic for a It's it's got Yep. It's it's solid horror movie, but it's got a lot to say about ghosts and and death and dying and that kind of stuff. I think that's a really fun one.
Josué:Is that count do you count that as a horror movie? Do do people consider that a horror movie?
Lara:Yeah. It scared the shit out of me when I watched
Link:that as a horror movie. Absolutely. Okay.
Josué:I guess he sees dead people. That's true. That's true. Forgot.
Lara:He sees dead people do some really, like, creepy
Josué:shit. Like, I'm remembering the movie now as we're as we're talking about it. Yeah. It's a horror movie.
Link:Yeah. Less on the horror movie side, there's Paranorman, which is a really fun animated movie, fun for families That is about Norman who can see ghosts. That's his power is that he is able to see the ghosts in in the town that he lives in. And that is, like stop motion animation, it's very fun to watch. I got to see a whole bunch of the set pieces when I went to the Leica Studios exhibits at the mo pop fairly recently.
Link:Another one I really like is session nine and Jacob's Ladder. Those are both, I think, nineties movies, horror movies. Jacob's Ladder has it's talking about like a guy who was in the Vietnam War and like the effects, the horror of that, but it has like a whole hook where, he goes to see a psych and the psych's like, you're already dead, which is very fun to explore in that space. And then session nine is about a group of construction workers working in an abandoned, sane asylum, kind of cliche, but it's fun. It's got some, like, really quotable moments in it that I think about all the time.
Link:Another movie that is not a horror movie is called A Ghost Story, and that came out in 2017. It's more like a drama art film. There's very little dialogue. It is a guy wearing the sheet, the ghost sheet, like, very classic visual imagery there, and, it's he is, like, watching his wife deal with his loss. And it's very, contemplative and talks about, like, the cyclical nature of things.
Link:That one that one's really yummy. Definitely not a not a fun ghost romp. That one that one will get you rain your guts. And then a book that I really love is called Horror Store by Grady Hendrix. That is about a haunted IKEA type store.
Link:And it's a fun horror book ghost story, but it ends up being like really strongly anti capitalist and, you know, I love that shit. That was a fun one I read recently that I really enjoyed. I think I think that's based oh oh, I this is sort of embarrassing. I have had on my to be read bookshelf for maybe almost a year at this point, a book called Spook by Mary Roach who is a science writer. She's done books on a whole bunch of different topics.
Link:Read, one is called Stiff and that's about like the science of like cadavers and stuff. So Spook is about the science of the afterlife of ghosts, what have you. I have not read it yet. I do want to. I think it would have been really great for this conversation, but I was not prepared.
Link:But, yeah, that covered that covered I got I got some I got some movies. Oh, I should do a video game. What's a video game with ghosts?
Josué:I
Link:guess, sort of. You could stretch What Remains of Edith Finch to be talking about ghosts in the physicality of the things that people leave behind and to the way that that tells stories and informs the actions that you take in the present even if they are no longer with you. I will never not wanna talk about that game.
Lara:Fuck
Josué:yeah. That aligns with Mark's theory as well. Yeah. Yeah.
Link:It's really it's really good. Highly recommend that. It's, like, three three and a half hours to play. Like, straight up, if I could if I could make it required, I would. I think everybody should play that game.
Link:What Remains of Edith Finch?
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. I can't think of, like, a game where you play as a ghost.
Link:Oh, there's there's definitely
Josué:There's gotta be some definitely some. Other than, like, a Casper game on, like, Super Nintendo.
Marc:Could could you technically count Destiny?
Link:I think Destiny Destiny. Destiny does counts. Because
Marc:you're you're technically
Lara:Already dead? Mhmm.
Marc:You're technically already dead. And then, you know, your companion is is your ghost. And it also falls in line with the the theory of energy. Like, it's it's your energy. It's just being contained within this, you know, material.
Josué:Soul in the ghost? I thought the ghost was something was your ghost is a ghost. No.
Marc:It's I think your energy itself is like, your energy is contained within the ghost, but how it brings you back is through the through the light. So, like, be cut like, that's how they know, like, hey. No. This is like, I'm your ghost because it has your energy imprint on it. So it searches for your matching energy, and then it uses the power and and the the lights to resurrect you and bring you back.
Marc:Because otherwise, how how are they like, they say, like, they're spending all this time looking for their guardian or their person, and they can't find them.
Josué:Allow it. How do
Marc:you do that? Yeah. They they gotta they gotta find the matching energy signature. And then they use the light, and then they bring you back.
Josué:Got it.
Link:So I didn't I didn't find Well, okay. There's there's, I found another game that I haven't played. It's called Ghostwire Tokyo. And I know that there are ghosts in it, but I don't know if you play ghost. And then there's also the the Fatal Frame series is about taking pictures of ghosts.
Link:And then, of course, phasmophobia, you are, trying to figure out what kind of ghost is haunting a particular location. That's deduction game that I really enjoy, but, does not have a whole lot to say about ghosts as a concept or what it means within the world that ghosts are measurable and real. Yeah. More silly fun spooky game, but it
Lara:it has ghosts in it. I have not I have not played this game, but another one popped up. Murdered soul suspect where you're a ghost having to find to solve your own murder.
Josué:I played this one.
Link:Imagine that in the like, mystery adventure game realm that there are hundreds of smaller titles that are exactly that premise of you solving your own murder.
Lara:Yeah. And this one has spirit fairer listed on Spirit spirit
Link:is sort of an interesting in between because they're not ghosts. Mhmm. And you're not
Josué:This is why the definition at the beginning, well, I was like, how are we defining ghosts? Right? Because if it's just like souls and spirits and things like that, which I think I think counts.
Lara:That's kind of It's overlapping in the in the vendor. Just different. Yeah. Mhmm.
Josué:Yeah. I think they're just yeah. I think I think they're different words.
Link:I wouldn't count spirit fair in this realm because it takes place in a separate
Lara:realm. In a different plot. So it's all you wouldn't count Hades either in that case. No. Yeah.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Got it. There are rules, people. There are rules.
Link:We made them up just like all the other rules.
Josué:Alright. Well, any closing thoughts, Mark?
Marc:I think ghosts are a very interesting topic to talk about, But also, you're free to make up your own rules.
Link:Do you believe in ghosts more or less than you did at the beginning of this conversation? Yeah.
Marc:I know. And then this is why I was like, you know, because I I have a lot of things to say about them, but at the same time, my my mind is like, do but do I actually like, these are this the rules I would have if I was like,
Josué:hold on. Let let go. You believe for
Marc:sure. Listen, guys.
Lara:You went to the effort of making up your rules.
Josué:Yeah. You've thought about this a lot. There's
Marc:Yeah. Because I told you, went back and forth on this. So this is where a lot of my Yeah. Alright. Closing thought, I believe in ghosts, guys.
Marc:There you go. Ghosts are real.
Josué:Lara?
Lara:No matter what whether you believe in ghosts or not, sometimes it's nice to be able to have these stories to be able to help ourselves feel better about a situation that we have no control over. Yeah, ghost winks, I think those are a thing, even if it's just my neurons connecting together. Link.
Link:I mean, all I have to say is Link died thirty years ago. Who are you talking to?
Josué:Makes sense. Link is very pale.
Link:Oh, ghost defeated.
Marc:Oh, my.
Josué:Alright. Thank you for listening and for joining us on this conversation, this exploration of the science of ghosts. Tell us know let us know if you you believe in ghosts. What are your favorite ghost stories? Have you ever used, you know, some kind of afterlife story or belief to help you get through, you know, a tough time?
Josué:Let us know. In one of our community spaces, the links are in the show notes. For more geek therapy visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good. We'll be back next week.
Lara:Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a five zero one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
