Feeling Out of Control? Build a World You Can Manage
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I'm joined by Link Keller.
Link:Hello.
Josué:Marc Cuiriz.
Marc:Hey. Yo.
Josué:Alright. So when when we're coming up with a topic, we do it in different ways. Sometimes we check-in to see what we've been watching or playing lately. And Link and I were talking about games that we've been playing lately. And then Mark, out of nowhere, comes and says, like, it sounds like you guys feel like you have no control in your lives and you're playing games where you change over pain control.
Josué:And I felt attacked.
Link:Were led to filth.
Josué:Like, unbelievable.
Marc:My god. You guys are making me sound, like, so insightful and prolific than this actually was. I kid you not. When when I tell you guys, I was I had just come home from work. I was sitting down.
Marc:I was eating dinner. I was reading these messages. We were struggling to with the topic. And, you know, Link, you were saying that you were play you've been playing a lot of The Sims. So you were listing off a bunch of things that you were watching and playing.
Marc:One of them was Terraria. I know for a while I was kinda getting back into Minecraft, and I'm sitting there so burnt out and tired from work. I'm just trying to enjoy my dinner, and I'm just like, don't know. Maybe we should talk about how it's like, give it you have a sense of control because sometimes life just feels out of our control.
Josué:So your first instinct tired was just attack us.
Link:I'd And be 100% correct.
Josué:Well, that
Marc:that's my thing too is that, like, I had no idea that that's what was how you guys are feeling. I was like, I don't know. Like, sure. Why not? And then next thing I know, I checked my phone forty minutes later, we're like, we have a topic.
Marc:And I was like, okay. I don't like
Josué:the guy stepping this back. Just just just just own it.
Marc:Fine. You know what? I deliberately read all of your minds. I peered into your your the inner machinations of your minds.
Link:And none of us were living from sin.
Marc:I decoded the enigmas, and I was able to precisely and pinpoint attack every single person that was in that chat.
Josué:So, Link, you said you said Marco's right. I am I
Link:am certain I have said this before on the podcast, but for me, playing The Sims is very much a sign of me feeling out of control in my own life. And I will download it and play it intensely for a few weeks. Usually that's the that's the time period is a couple of weeks. And then I'm free again. But it I had been feeling the itch to play The Sims four again.
Link:Somewhat recently, I think honestly, what set it off is I was replaying Fallout four and doing the settlement stuff was just enough. Just just enough to be like, man, I really want to build some houses. I real that. And that's the thing that I like to do in The Sims. I'm not really playing the life simulation part.
Link:I just like to build and decorate my my little fantasy houses.
Josué:Okay, okay. Wait, wait, wait.
Link:Which I think that is maybe what we're going to end up talking about is that these games have so much variety in the ways that you can engage with them. They honestly make really good tools for this kind of internal processing but yeah so that's that's what I've definitely talked about it on the podcast before but yeah it is a it is a sign of mental illness, And and then I play I play with my little dollhouse game, and I turn off my outside brain for a while. And it's just my sim brain, only sim brain.
Josué:Okay, so to clarify you, the way that you play The Sims, you don't do the life stuff at all.
Link:I do. I do do that stuff sometimes. I did when I was younger when I was playing the original Sims. Like, I enjoy that aspect. But that is not the main draw for me.
Link:For me, I like I like making the characters like I like designing, designing my little Barbie and putting their little outfits on. I like that part. And I really love building the house and decorating it inside and everything. And, like, you know, lawn decorations and fancy pools and shit like that. Yeah.
Link:And then occasionally, I'll be like, okay, now I'm going to like play the game in this beautiful space that I built. And I'll play it for, know, a couple of hours total, and then I'll lose interest or be like, inspired to be like, you know what, this town needs right down the street from this weird building I just finished building is another new weird building. I'm gonna go start right now. So yes, the building the building is what I'm mostly engaging with at this point.
Josué:You know, I don't remember when The Sims four, which is the most recent one, when it went free to play. But I I read downloaded it 2018? Yeah, it wasn't my back.
Link:It came out in 2014 or 2015 originally, I think 2014. I think it's been a decade. But it went it went free to play. Want to say in 2018.
Josué:Yeah, so I was checking today in
Link:2018.
Josué:Yeah, I was checking today on steam. And if you wanna buy all of the DLC, it costs $813. That is insane. It's so many packs. It's like 80 something packs of content.
Josué:Do you have any of those? Do you like is there anything that you bought additionally for a pirate one?
Link:Yeah, pirate pirate pirate one. You're right. I did. I downloaded a pirate pack is what I I misunderstood. That is what I play with is the pirates pack.
Link:Or maybe.
Josué:Do you use any additional content from what's like, like, I'm just wondering if there's a particular aesthetic or something that you you go to over and over again when you play the game? Like, do you rebuild the same house? Or do you always do something different?
Link:I'm usually doing something different. I'm usually Oh, okay. No, that's fine. Being vulnerable with you guys is such a beautiful experience that doesn't give me nausea. Have decided to build like an apartment building slash community center for the Baldur's Gate three companions.
Link:I haven't made all of the Sims yet because I think I think I have too many people on one lot. So I'm gonna have to like split split up the families to make it work. Anyways, that's neither here nor there. I tend to replicate like other things that I enjoy. Like when I was younger, it would be like making the characters from books that I was reading, And stuff like that.
Link:Was that your question? I don't remember. I blacked out.
Marc:The mere
Josué:mention of Baldur's Gate.
Link:It's truly it's just it's my deep psyche I'm revealing with you all.
Josué:Okay, we'll come back to your deep psyche in a second. I've been playing Terraria again. Also, so The Sims came out in 2014. Terraria came out in 2016. I think Minecraft is older than both of those.
Marc:Yeah. I I don't oh, are we talking about, like, when it was officially released, or, like, are we talking about beta? Because beta was around for a while.
Josué:Just commit this alpha. Doesn't I mean, it doesn't matter. It's old. These these games are very old. So I was gonna get out.
Josué:We we were going back to these games. Yeah. The way the way that I like to play Terraria and actually, the first time I played it was very mostly social. It was a friend who really liked to play it. And I was like, I've tried it before, but I wasn't really into it.
Josué:And I was like, let's build a world together. And I was like, okay, cool. And she was giving me, like, items and stuff. So, like, I was able to get powered up pretty, pretty early on. So I didn't have to do too much of a grind.
Josué:And anyway, so we built out this huge world. Hadn't played it, like, in a year. And then recently, we both got back into it, and we started a new world. And it is it's cool because, like, I'm bringing stuff from the other world, so it's not, like, at zero. So I'm, like, completely overpowered, but it's fine because what I wanna do is just explore and build and design buildings and yeah.
Josué:It's it's really about the building piece. It's fun. Like, there's, like, boss encounters and challenges and things like that that come up. That part is cool, but that's not really what I'm there for. I'm definitely there for that for that building piece of it.
Josué:I'm not doing any Baldur's Gate stuff in it, but I have decided to build a giant Gundam. That's cool. I already have my reference stuff and, like, this is this is a whole project to to be able to build that out. But, yeah, there's something we can get into the the whys of that later. But no.
Josué:Yeah. I don't know. I I like the I like the building piece of it. And I
Link:like the Before we get into the whys, I do wanna ask, Mark, you've you have played one of these types of games or several of them. What is the part that you like that you engage with?
Marc:Yeah, so I've I've dabbled in Terraria not as much as Minecraft though Minecraft was a game was my game of choice. And for me, a lot of it on the beginning was like the building aspect as well. But as time went on, and you know, Minecraft has gone through its countless updates. And with mod packs coming out, I found myself being more drawn to the types of mods and things like that that had like a quest line. So like they had like actual objectives for me to work towards a complete and therefore like I was like, okay, I'm in control.
Marc:I decide how I want this to go about. Then like everything is within my control. So I control my base, I control what path I want to go down or how I want to obtain, you know, and complete certain objectives and then continue on with that, whether that's unlocking new mods as it goes through different ages or it's just you get a little hurrah and you get a little pat in the back. So that's sort of the stuff that I found myself being more drawn to. The creative aspect of it when creative was launched was great and all, but I am nowhere near the level of skill as like a lot of the master builders are out there.
Marc:I just like building my little hut and having my little underground area and I kind of go from there. I'm pretty simplistic with it, but I don't know. It's like an almost like a sense of like, yeah, I did this.
Josué:This is not When you say simplistic, like, what what kind of what kind of buildings are you building? You know, it's like
Link:not recreating a real building, but also it has windows in it.
Josué:But, like, it's a little hot, but it also has, you know, seven layers beneath it and it's a bunker with
Link:A lava waterfall. Yeah.
Marc:Wish I was that can. Honestly, I I wish I was that creative. Actually, my friend and I, we started a mod pack where it was like a it's kinda like Skyblock, which is kinda like a challenge map that was created for Minecraft. And we he started he made the server for the two of us to kinda just build off and do our own thing. Now he got a head start.
Marc:So by the time I actually logged on initially, he already had like this whole like triple decked out base. He's like, oh yeah, I I just did a little bit of of grinding and mining. And I was like, a little bit? My god. You could fit, like, 15 establishments in here.
Marc:And then I'm like, well, now what do I do? But then I, you know, then I find my I usually find, like, my mods to work on, and and then I I go from there. But but to me, learning and understanding those mods and, like, being able to have control and manipulate the world, whether it's in a natural world or it's like one of those skyblock challenge worlds, that to me is like, that's what I'm after. And that's what gives me like the that's what scratches the itch. Because every time I have that itch to play Minecraft, it's like, it grows until I do something to the point where I'm like, yeah, that's what I was looking for.
Marc:That's what I wanted. And then I ignore it for months.
Link:Admittedly, I did not play very much Minecraft. I played it when it was still in alpha. But the part that I enjoyed about Minecraft, like I thought the building was very cool. And like the monster stuff was like, okay. But I just liked exploring.
Link:I liked looking around the the generated world and finding weird little pockets of spaces and stuff like that. That was, an enjoyable aspect for me was the just the exploration part.
Marc:Which fun fact, Alpha was released in 02/2009.
Link:There you go. That was gonna be my public.
Marc:In 2009 and then it was officially released in November 2011.
Link:2011. Alright.
Marc:And apparently Terraria came out a little bit before that. So
Josué:I think No.
Marc:It's I I think it well, on here it says After
Link:alpha but before official release.
Marc:This official release of Minecraft came out in November 2011. Terraria was released on May 1631.
Josué:Oh, I didn't think it was that old.
Marc:Yeah. Terraria is is quite old. I was about to say, like, I think I remember playing Terraria before '20 what year did you say? '26 2016?
Josué:Yeah. I thought it was 2016.
Marc:Yeah. No. I remember playing it before then.
Josué:Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm gonna fact check you anyway.
Marc:Mean, feel free to. I mean, this 2011 could very well be, like, maybe when it was, like, first released, but like nowhere near the finished product. Maybe
Link:I don't Terraria also did the thing where it was like
Marc:In like alpha and beta
Link:for early access on Steam for a while, and then it came out and then it came out on consoles also.
Josué:Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think just on Steam, it said I think it said, like, released 2016, which was may just be when it hit Steam. I don't know.
Josué:Damn. Okay. That game is old. That game is still also being supported. Like, the three these three games are ten to fifteen years old, and they are all still getting updates and still getting supported.
Josué:Crazy. That's crazy to me. I also like the exploration piece. There's I like digging games. So in Terraria, since it's two d and side scrolling, every time the world is randomly generated, there are distinct biomes.
Josué:There's also a curse that like spreads throughout the world, and you have to eventually take, you know, take control of that. But also, there's like, under ground biomes, and there's a hell, like all the way at the bottom. And so like, I like to just like dig all the way straight down multiple areas. So I can start picking and then connecting the different biomes like that exploration piece, I really like a lot as well.
Link:I was as you were describing that I was just reminded that another game that totally fulfills these same kinds of interactions is oxygen not included by clay games. The same people who did Don't Starve, which is a fantastic game. But Oxygen Not Included is like a a base building game, but you are like mining out from where you start. And so it's like you can focus more on like trying to explore or you can focus more on like building the best, most efficient base that will keep your little meeples alive. But it has that same thing where it's like, there's the aspect where it's more about like, looking around and figuring out strategies for getting to places versus focusing more on like, the more individualized, like, I'm going to help this person level up this skill so that they can do this goal.
Josué:So these are these are I mean, not The Sims, not necessarily, but the rest of these games are considered survival games. Mhmm. The Sims isn't isn't categorized that, but it is.
Link:There ways to play The Sims that are very much survival game.
Josué:I think by default, it is. Right? Like, you can die if you don't if you don't do if you don't take care of business. Right? So but I hate survival games.
Josué:I don't like the aspect of having to like, if I have the option to turn off needing to eat and sleep, to all those things, I turn that off because I don't I don't like that. I find it I understand the appeal. And the challenge and the tension that that can Like
Link:real life of like, I have I have to take care of my human mech suits.
Josué:It feels tedious.
Link:Why would I do that? Why would I do that same tedious job in a video game?
Marc:That's like, listen, I'm playing the same tool. Avoid
Josué:doing that.
Link:So much more rewarding than real life. Like, oh.
Josué:There are some things in games where I I don't like doing them because, like, oh, what was the game called? Unpacking?
Link:Unpacking.
Josué:Unpacking. That I hated. Right? Because it's like, oh, right? Like, I don't I don't I don't wanna unpack stuff.
Josué:That's not no. Because, like, I'm doing that in real life. I don't wanna have to do that. That I don't like. The food and stuff and games, it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel realistic enough, but it's just it just feels annoying.
Josué:You know, like, like having to fill up your gas tank constantly, right, in a in a in a driving game like that that I actually never played a driving game where you have to constantly add fuel to the car.
Marc:Try typing simulator.
Link:Are definitely there are survival games where you have to fill your gas tank. I've been playing Project Zomboid again, and that you need to fill your gas tank. Yeah, I don't know. There's there's definitely other ones.
Marc:I don't I don't know.
Josué:Yeah. Unless my fuel is getting in my I want my stamina, my fuel, my charges to refill automatically over time. I don't want to have to
Link:I want magic potions. I'm thinking of like the the rest system in Balder's Gate three where you're picking out food and wine or whatever for your party to eat before you take your long rest and there's like an auto select button that just does numerically the amount of things you need to meet the full rest requirement but there are people including me, who will scroll through all of the fucking shit you've picked up on your adventures and like try and make a meal out of it where it's like and then we're gonna have sweet rolls for dessert. And this wine will be paired with our leek soup. Like, that's what that is way more fun than me having to feed my own body.
Josué:Yeah. I I started doing that once. And Baldr's Gate three. And then I and then I saw the button. The auto button.
Link:Makes it faster. I don't want to think about it.
Josué:Yeah. What options can I? Can I do? Can I can I activate so that that stuff is less tedious? But, I mean, it is interesting that we're all playing these like, the we're we're talking about games where people can play them very differently, which I think is the appeal.
Josué:Even something like Baldur's Gate three, like, the replayability of that game and the the idea that everybody who plays it can have a different a slightly different experience or very different experience is appealing. So when I started playing Terraria again recently, with my same friend, we had both been laid off from our jobs recently. And it's like, we've got a little extra free time. And I don't think we ever talked about it the way we're talking about it now, but, like, how or why we suddenly got that itch again Mhmm. To play.
Josué:And I haven't thought too deep about it. I know that there's something that I find comforting about that game in particular where I'm building stuff. Right? I'm like like, there's there's this this pervasive, yeah, persistent, this persistent world, right, that I'm diving into, I'm building on top of, and it's like, it's there. Nobody comes and tears it down.
Josué:Nothing gets right. And it is very much like how I want it or how me and my friend want it to be. And I have sections and you know, like, I can fix things in it. I mean, again, I hadn't consciously thought about that. But to be in that moment where we're both like, what are we going to do next?
Josué:We lost our jobs. It's like, that was completely out of our control, you know, to to to Mark's, you know, point from earlier. I think I think that's that's huge. Even it's funny because even something like Animal Crossing, like, you go back and, like, there's cockroaches in my house, and there's weeds all over the place, which doesn't bother me. Right?
Josué:I think I think Animal Crossing is is very similar in the sense that recently, someone on the team posted in our Slack, right, they're like, oh, I I can't get Animal Crossing multiplayer to work. Can somebody help me out? So I went and I went to I was like, yeah, no, no problem. And then when I booted up, Animal Crossing, my island was completely gone. And the reason why this is just a PSA, Nintendo, for a lot of stuff, they're just the worst.
Josué:And so they don't allow you to back up in the cloud your your island. So I bought a newer switch, the OLED version. When choose the kingdom came out, I wanted to sell the version. So I have that. And so I booted up and it didn't automatically bring the save over.
Josué:I was like, but why? So I looked it up and Nintendo just will not do that. No. Because
Link:the islands are being tied to console.
Josué:It's so stupid. But they you are you can move it, but you have to download a separate app called the Animal Crossing island transfer tool. And you have to download it on each switch. And then have them on automatic at the same time and then choose the options, and then it'll transfer from one to the other. Anyway, so I was able to save my island.
Josué:And one thing that I really liked was seeing my island again. Right? Like, I like it was I was very happy to see what I had built before. But I do find a little overwhelming in Animal Crossing to, like, start again. One thing in I don't know so much in The Sims, but in Minecraft and in Terraria, the world is huge.
Josué:Like, it's hard to run out of room if you pick a a large large enough world. And also, there's the verticality of it. Like, in Turret, I can just start building in the sky. Minecraft too, technically, but it's yeah. That's that's like there's there's something about that.
Josué:That's really cool. But the discovery and then having again, I hadn't thought about it in that way of the control piece, but it definitely feels
Link:So true.
Josué:I think But like, again, like, for me, what keeps coming to mind is that idea of, like, stability. Right? Like, I can build something that will that will last. Mhmm. Sure.
Josué:In lots of games, you get stronger and all that. All of that happens in this game. But there's something about building something that will be there. But then also, can change it if I want. Mhmm.
Josué:There's, like there's also that freedom to it. Or if I wanna change the color, I wanna I wanna redesign it, and I wanna add a second floor. One, it doesn't cost me money. Right? Even I've played Minecraft in in creator mode where I can just like, I have infinite of everything.
Josué:Right? So I've been I've spent some time just, like, building out a glass building just because like, that felt therapeutic. But in Terraria, the way I've played I think there's a there's a creator mode too. But the way I played it is like in the regular way, and then you you have to buy the resources and stuff. And that's not too bad because I can go carve up a mountain and bring it over, and I can mix and match things.
Josué:And there is there is, like, a resource management piece to it, but it never feels it never feels like something is unattainable either. Like, I can I can build it? If I can if I can think of it, I can build it, and it'll be there. I don't know. There's just there there's definitely something about that that is missing from my life, particularly right now.
Josué:And actually, it's funny when I bought the house when I so I'm living in a house now where I when I bought it, I started playing the game. I hadn't thought about this. Started playing the game. And my friend and I had a like, my house was in bad shape. So we called it I think we called it derelict.
Josué:Right? Beautiful. And then and then in the game, we built a house and we called it derelict too. And but then as I'm building that, right, I was like, oh, to actually fix my house is expensive and time consuming and loud and very difficult. But here, like, this house is looking great.
Josué:And so I didn't even realize that that now I'm I have to get rid of this house because I lost the job and all that. And it's like, oh, like, this house is not it will not persist. It's not permanent. And a lot of the changes I had to make to it, like, weren't they were for practical reasons, and they were not, like, things that I wanted to do. So all of that goes out the window when I'm playing Terraria because they're get to be creative, but also, like, oh, this is a home.
Josué:And you're making homes for people, and people are coming in and moving in and out. Yeah. It's definitely missing. And it's definitely a sandbox where I can do all of that.
Marc:I feel like in our lives when things can sometimes be so inconsistent or, you know, there's so much flux like fluctuation in our day to day lives, whether that's, you know, just slight variations in our schedules or sudden changes like, you know, like losing a job or buying a house and then having to, you know, fix said house. I feel like games like like these almost are like, they serve as, like, the one constant or the one consistent thing that we have. And the control piece comes in our ability to be able to make these changes or build things as, you know, as we see fit. We can sort of like but it's it's the thing that we return to, right? Like for you, like when you said you bought the house, like you started playing it.
Marc:Then when you were laid off, you came back to it. And for me, for Minecraft, whenever I would always feel really stressed out or when I felt like life was getting so overwhelming, Minecraft to me was the time when I could zone out for hours. And I mean hours playing it and returning back to it with old friends especially. And we have a server where it's just the two of us, so we don't worry about other people coming and going or wrecking things. No, I can choose to do the things that I want to do.
Marc:No one can tell me yes or no. There are no rules. It's really just, hey, go ahead and do what you want. So when I want to follow a certain mod pack or if I want to follow and do these certain quests, whether that's with my friend or even by myself, to me, that's the one constant that I have because there are so many things that are changing. Like when I was still in school, you know, doing homework assignments, going to class, working full time, doing an internship, so many things, feeling so incredibly overwhelmed.
Marc:But when I got to sit down and I was able to have a few hours to just play the game, like, I've like, to me, I felt much more relaxed and much more at ease because I was able to just do what I wanted and and build and explore or pursue something and learn something, learn something that I wanted to learn. And it was all simply just for pleasure. And so for me, that was always like, that's always been a consistent thing because this is something I've returned to numerous times throughout my life from high school to undergrad and even now. Like, it's it's something that I and I know that in the future, it's something that I will keep returning to. Minecraft is one of those games where, like I feel like it's always gonna be supported, and it's going to be around at least for a good while.
Josué:I for for me, I think playing the game is slightly different because, like, I realized that it feels it's like, oh, I lost my job. And while I'm like my job is where I got to be creative and build stuff and, like, gain XP, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And even with the house, was like, there was a while where I wasn't playing the game anymore. And I was, yeah, I was I was pretty handy. I was watching a lot of YouTube, bought a lot of tools.
Josué:It was pretty cool. I did a lot of stuff myself. And then like losing the job, losing the house is like, oh, well, I guess I can do that in in Terraria, which is which is good. Right? Or it's just like because because I can't.
Josué:Right? Like, I can apply for jobs. I can do other stuff. But, like, I don't have that adventure, that quest. I don't have that those tasks to do.
Josué:And so I have because what what you're saying is like, oh, when you're super busy, these provide, like, respite for you. And for me, it's more like, I want some busy work to do. Mhmm. I
Link:think I think that's definitely an aspect to it in that. And this is definitely something talked about in Jane Mckonacall's Reality is Broken, where it's just the having the game mechanics where you know what types of interactions are possible. And you know what the expectations of goals are within there. Like you can self direct your goals, but you you know how the game will react to those and provide the reward for whatever action you are doing. And real life very often does not have that kind of clarity and consistency.
Link:And a lot of the times our expectations are wrong or thwarted or anything on that level. Video games do a very good job about like, filling that that need. And so even just like the consistency of like, I have job I do job from this time to this time. And that has a sort of structured element to your life. Video game can do that too.
Link:Where it's like, I'm going to get on from you know, four to six, and we're gonna we're gonna play this game together. It's like there, there's the structure there. And that is fulfilling that that need of structure and that need of like, some creativity in what you do, but you know what tasks need need, I'm doing air quotes need to be done within the space and work can be like that also where it's like there's some creativity and how you handle your tasks but you know what your tasks are and what when you're supposed to do them and how to do them. Sometimes depending on the job. Yeah, I see that overlap there where it's like I don't have that consistency of employment now.
Link:And so finding a way to sort of fulfill those same needs.
Josué:It's a good point, because Reality is Broken emphasizes that real life doesn't isn't as good at this as video games are. And that if jobs and other aspects of life adopted some of these systems and mechanics, people would be more engaged, we could probably get more done, etcetera. I'm not saying that my job my like, my recent jobs were as good as video games at all. But the but they were filling that role. In the book, she talks a lot about World of Warcraft.
Josué:And she talks about how people like, they're part of a guild. There's, like, these quests, there's missions, there's, like, there is structure to it, but there's also there's this commitment. There's, like, this teamwork. Like, it is it is work. Right?
Josué:It is not just because, Mark, right, like, we we we've talked about, like, some games are just, like, relaxing and chilling. Right? Like, I a game that puts me in a flow state is very different than, like, Terraria for me where, like, I'll talk to my friends. Like, what are we doing? It's like, okay.
Josué:We're doing a Jap a Japan themed world this time. Right? We're watching an anime like with the the the I think the the world is called United States of Smash. Right? Because it's a it's a My Hero reference.
Josué:And and so I was like, oh, we're doing Japan theme. We're doing different areas. I'm gonna put a giant Gundam, like in Yokohama. I'm building the whole factory factory. Right?
Josué:And it's like, okay. So what are we working on today? Like, that's kind of how we're playing. And and just like, again, in World of Warcraft or any NMO RPG, right, you're like, oh, what what are we doing today? Right?
Josué:It's like, oh, we we have a clear set goal Yeah. Or a thing that we're So I'm like, oh, I'm gonna build this out. I'm gonna do this, or I'm gonna I'm gonna work on this area. Again, sure. You have a house, you can do that kind of stuff in real life.
Josué:I'm gonna do the yard work today. I'm gonna do this. Right? Those are those are smaller things that you can do. And at work, it's like, I've got this project, etcetera.
Josué:But once I lost that, it was like, and I kind of definitely was not a conscious, like, motivation. Like, I was I did not realize until now. I'm pretty sure that's kind of what was going on.
Marc:Until I called you out? Until you called me
Josué:out aggressively, violently.
Marc:But I I totally get what you're saying. And and I will agree with you. And, like the way I was describing Minecraft, like especially when I would focus on trying to learn a new mod pack. But I'd sit there and I'd watch videos or I'd read the wikis and I would try to understand the mechanics of it, understand how it would progress. I think for me, like, that was my like, that's busy work for me.
Marc:But at the same time, like, I think because I'm doing it and I'm coming at it from the angle of like, this is like my time to just relax and I'm doing this because I
Josué:want
Marc:to.
Josué:I have lot pressure. I
Link:am choosing this. Therefore, having a great time.
Marc:Exactly. It was it was more of like the respite and the pleasure for me, which is what I took from it. Whereas for you, like you're saying, it's like you you were subconsciously looking for that busy work because that
Link:I mean, I I think all of this still falls under the, idea of, like, the need for control is like the need to have control over what meaningless tasks you are opting into and how long you spend on it is like that that is you exhibiting your your control and agency within the space.
Josué:A part of that agency base too, I think is like, unlike the belonging or ownership of it. Right? It's like nobody can take this from me, except the Steam Cloud.
Link:Except Nintendo.
Josué:Right? But this idea that you can okay. No. I I built that. You know?
Josué:It's up to me. Nobody's gonna no law is gonna come by. Nothing like, nothing's gonna come and change. A natural disaster isn't gonna come in and fuck it up. Right?
Josué:Like, I don't know. There's something there's something about that where it's like, damn. That's and if I wanna take it down, I'll take it down. It doesn't cost me anything. Yeah.
Josué:It's it's just such a again, think you try to compare those aspects to it. And then it's
Link:I oh, I just I'm so sorry.
Josué:I'm so sorry. Yeah. Go. Go. Go.
Josué:Go.
Link:No. I just I just realized I think there's also we're talking about, like, playing these games intensely for a period of time and stopping and then returning to it. I think that there is an aspect in that of oh, no. Oh, no. The threat is unraveling.
Link:Oh, god.
Marc:Quick, we'll return to that.
Link:That's so embarrassing. Oh, it's it's fulfilling a need of of, like, control in your own life of like, when you are doing something like there are so many things like you need to job, you need to do laundry, you, you need to maintain your vehicle. Like all of those things is and that is not on your timeline. And so when things are happening in your life that is like I don't have control over those things. Like I'm going to return to this thing where within the, the thing within the game itself is very much about personal control but also I am returning to a period of time in my life where like that that was fulfilling that need of control.
Link:And so it's like, your brain's like, we should do that again. Can we go back to that? Can we do that? Can we do that again?
Marc:Can we relive this experience just for a little bit?
Josué:Part of that too, it's like, oh, this is familiar. I don't have to learn from scratch.
Link:Yes. Yes.
Josué:I can I can fall right back into Yes?
Link:Yes. Is the the knowing what the expectations, what kinds of goals, way, how to engage with the the tools and even in games that, like, get updated over time. Like, the last time I played Sims versus this time I'm playing Sims, there are like five or six new gameplay packs or whatever. And so there is new stuff to engage with. But my understanding of The Sims is consistent.
Link:And so I know how to dive right back into that level of being able to experience that kind of I know what I'm doing in this space, so I can really exhibit my agency and control. Instead of having to like learn how the tools work.
Josué:I think there's an aspect of exercise to it. Right? It's like, oh, I'm, you know, I need to I need to hit the gym again. Mean, you go back for a couple months until you get back in shape, and then then you stop going. Right?
Josué:And then maybe you have a particular goal. Or even like a vacation. Right? It's like, oh, you know, every year we get Lara goes to camp every year. Right?
Josué:And it's like a recharge period. That's very familiar. And it's like, there when you need it. I feel like this is this is a part of that. Like, it'll be like, Terraria will be there for me when I need it.
Link:Definitely. That that's what I was trying to get to is thank you. Thank you, Josue. That's what I was trying to get to is even when we put it down and we leave it alone for a while, if you come back to it, like, you know, like, my island hasn't changed or it superficially changed, but it's still my island, or still my fortress in Terraria, or Minecraft or whatever.
Marc:Yeah. And even with Minecraft, like, can also, like, if you really want to, you can even prevent it from auto updating. So you could literally come back to it exactly as you had it.
Link:Yeah. And you definitely cannot do that in real life.
Marc:Exactly. You can't just like, you can't just quickly step out for a quick a quick minute and then come back at the exact same point in life.
Josué:No, no, I wish. That'd be nice. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is good to have.
Josué:Again, I'm reflecting a lot on why it serves the purpose that it serves. I think that's been the biggest reflection for me. There is comfort in knowing that like, oh, it is there. I don't want to say, I'm gonna say prescriptive. It's like, oh, I think I need some travaria.
Josué:I think to maybe even, like I said before, like, suddenly, that part of my brain isn't working the way because I lost these things. I need a little bit of that. And then you could say
Link:you yearn for the minds.
Josué:So you
Link:know what? I really have this deep internal need to just dig a really deep hole straight down. So I'm gonna go install Terraria. It's just
Marc:You know what? Maybe I do wanna just dig straight to hell.
Link:It's just sometimes
Marc:Buddha Terraria.
Link:He just wanna go straight to hell.
Josué:Yep. Yep. I it's very satisfying. I just finished a game called mini shoot adventure, which is a a, like, a bullet hell shooter mixed with Legend of Zelda, like top down Legend of Zelda. And it is it is it is one of my favorite games now.
Josué:It is so it like, it's mixing two genres that I love. But when I was finished with it, I was like, oh, I wanna I wanna go back, and I have the option of playing it in a harder mode. I was like, but I don't that's not really what I want. I don't really like it was challenging enough when I did it the first time. And what I enjoyed was the discovery of things.
Josué:In hindsight, it's actually it's it's linear, like the old, like, older Zelda games. So I don't so I haven't gone back to it because there really isn't like, can't really do anything different. Yeah. To it. The what I really enjoyed was discovery piece of it.
Josué:Like Breath of the Wild, I restarted it because I love that part at the beginning of just like discovering, like, walking out and discovering new things constantly. And I think even I was like, I'm gonna do it differently this time. And I think I ended up in the same order anyway when I replayed it. Just because I I was still discovering new things. I don't know.
Josué:There was something about that journey and and seeing everything that was new. Like, there's that there's different parts of the game that I want to, again, recreate. Like, when I'm playing Torii again, it's it is technically a survival game, but I don't wanna play the survival part again. I already did that. That's actually a good point.
Josué:I don't wanna do that shit again. I don't want to have to go to school again. I don't want to have to start entry level again. I don't want to have to go. I don't want to have to start from scratch again.
Josué:I once had a job where someone was like, you gotta pay your dues. I was like,
Link:I put my time in in the mines, sir.
Josué:Pay my dues? And I'm I was I was much older than anybody else in this program that I was in. I was like, pay my dues? Like, you've seen my resume. Right?
Josué:Like, pay my dues. And, like, I wasn't I hope that doesn't come across as arrogant. Right? I was like it was it was just a literal, like, factual conversation that she's she's telling she was always telling people, like, you gotta pay your dues. And I'm like, I'm I paid my dues.
Josué:I paid my dues plenty. I'm not doing that again. And so there's a part of that in games that I don't I don't wanna do that again.
Link:Actually bringing in my dues receipts because I would like to be reimbursed.
Marc:I think I overpaid, actually. Please. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. I I like playing new game pluses where you can where, like, you start with the stuff that you accumulated before. Right? Like, I hate I hate that feeling of star I love Metroid games, but it's still about like, I know it's gonna happen. I know it's gonna happen.
Josué:You're gonna lose all your stuff, but there's still, like, for a moment, I'm like, oh, it's always messed up that you let me taste have being powerful and then lose it. Although, like, getting stronger over time is is, like, the fun of the game, but there's still there's still something about that where you lose you lose everything at the beginning of each game that bothers me a little. Because I've done this seven times already. Every time I'm Samus, you take everything from me no matter how strong I get. But I think that's an aspect of it too.
Josué:Like, I'm I can I have the option to simply go from one world into area, bring my character over, and jump into this new world and build it out without having to go through all that other stuff? That's why mods are cool.
Marc:I I love mods. Like, ever since my friends and I started playing mods with Minecraft, I don't think I've actually gone back and played vanilla Minecraft ever.
Josué:What is that even? Yeah.
Marc:Exactly. Like, I know vanilla Minecraft has gone through so many updates, and I'm sure there's a lot more stuff in it now. However, it's just too boring to me. I'm like, no. No.
Marc:No. I need something. I need something to yearn for. I need something to strive for. I need I need to be able to sit down and say, today, I am going to work on this thing.
Josué:Because I paid your
Marc:dues. Do that thing. I paid my dues.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah.
Marc:I know my basics. I understand the foundation of everything. I I know how it works. So let me just have my fun. Let me learn the things I wanna learn and just let me do my own thing, damn it.
Marc:Like, that's all I ask for.
Josué:I've killed an ender dragon already. I wanna do something different. I wanna go I've
Marc:blown up everything.
Josué:Yeah. Like Yeah.
Marc:I I've done it all. Yeah. So I just wanna be able to learn something new and fun. And if I don't like it, I can just jump into another world and it'll be like it never happened. I goof up something, just restart it.
Marc:I can even have the same seed and everything, so it'll be as if, like, nothing happened and just start over.
Josué:I'll add one more thing, and I'm curious what you guys think that I thought of earlier. Just, like, I remember I I know people who, like, go back to Breath of the Wild. They don't like Breath of the Wild or or other games that are, like, that open. Because, like, I don't know where to go, what to do. It's too many options.
Josué:I don't I don't know where to go. I don't like this. I don't like this feeling. I I need I need a waypoint. I need structure.
Josué:And I get that. But my my love of the discovery and finding all things and having that openness trumps that. But in something I I don't know how this works exactly in The Sims. But in Minecraft, there's a grid. It's a three-dimensional grid, and everything is done with blocks.
Josué:So there's still, like, a structure and rules to it. Right? Like, you can't make a round ball. You can't you can't do like, there's certain that you can do a lot of things, but there's still, like
Marc:A sense of rigidness to it.
Josué:And the snappiness to it where, like, the block goes here. Like, there's alignment in it. And so in in Terraria, it's it's the same way, like and it's two d. And there is a grid, like, the blocks go and per like, can only go in a in a way where, like, you can't there is there is order there's some order in that chaos where it's not just completely open. Like, if I see an open canvas and I need to draw something, like, I don't know what to draw.
Josué:Right? Like, I I have I actually like to, like, use grid paper and, like, it helps me helps guide me. But there's something about that. Right? Like, we still there's, like, all of this freedom, but there's still there's just, like, just enough in rules and and limits and and structure.
Josué:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. But, again, but there's something about, like, the like, if I if I put it'll, like, snap to the one next to it, like, thank you. Like, that feels good.
Josué:Then a buck, you know, that that kind of yes. Constraints, but, like, a lie I keep coming back to this idea of alignment. Like, I can I'm gonna make a straight line because there's no other choice, and I like that. So and, yeah, I appreciate that as well. I think it it goes further into that idea of, like, life isn't like that.
Josué:There's just there's just no way. It just it doesn't work that way. Do you guys think about that at all in, like, The Sims or Minecraft?
Link:So I, I use a move objects cheat inside the Sims so that because that is very much true. The Sims is also on a grid. There there is a three-dimensional three dimensionality to it in that, you know, things will some things will stack up on top of each other. And you can have multi story buildings, of course. But I turn on the the movement cheat so that I can squish things closer together so I can fit more stuff on a surface without using the auto snap feature.
Josué:Okay, so you don't like the snappy
Link:so in this in this way I don't. It it is very useful in the building, like the building structure and like making the, you know, the doors line up and windows line up. Having everything on a grid is useful. But having the ability to opt in when I personally want to fudge something just a little bit to force it to be a little bit more asymmetric or look better because sometimes the auto snap function is like this important appliances hanging partially off the edge of the counter for some reasons. Would it do that?
Link:But being able to opt in to like when when I want to override the auto snap feature That gives me more of that sense of power in in placement within the environment.
Josué:Yeah. I
Marc:like it. It gives me a sense of nice. It's like a nice satisfaction when everything just kind of fits nicely and neatly together. It's nice in a crisp line or it's like how how I want it like diagonally because you know, with blocks, it's a little differently. Just be different like that.
Marc:But the simple fact that it's nice and defined and it can just kind of snap into place or and you know, sometimes I don't even have to think I just got to just start placing and it just knows what to do. Like, that frees up my brain space to then focus on the next thing that I wanna do while I'm mindlessly just doing something because it needs to get done in the game.
Josué:I hate it in games when you have to, like, play something and you like, you miss because you dropped it and it didn't fall where it was supposed to fall. Mhmm.
Link:There there is I mean, in The Sims, there are, you know, obviously, there are houses that are built in the game that you can just have your Sims move into those places if you're not interested in building. And then more granularly, are like pre made rooms, so you can pick and choose pre designed rooms and just sit them next to each other, but you don't have to do all of the designing if you're not interested in that part of the game. Right? So it supports players who are like, I want a house, but I wanna get to the game. I'm you know, I wanna work on my Sims career.
Link:I wanna work on my Sims family. I'm not interested in focusing on the building part and that alignment aspect of the pieces will just snap together and the doors will line up and be like, this is a doorway now. Makes it really useful for players who enjoy that kind of gameplay. Yeah. Less than I do.
Josué:Yeah, yeah. I do I do. Real life doesn't have the different accessibility features. Right? And that's why I like, okay, no, no, I like a game.
Josué:Like I want this. I want this challenge. I don't want that challenge in my game. I don't wanna have to eat every two hours or, you know, or my vision starts getting blurry in the game. That part, no.
Josué:I don't want that. Combat? Yeah. Sure. A puzzle?
Josué:Give me a good puzzle. Make the puzzles harder, please. That that I like. But, yeah, I'm being to be able to have that, again, that sense of control to, like, make make a space where you can yeah. That'll be great.
Josué:Just have some accommodations. Alright. Well, do you do you feel better, Mark?
Marc:Felt
Josué:so Out of yourself?
Marc:Control of this of this I felt so in control of myself during this whole discussion. Such a jerk. You know? I feel immensely satisfied in in in how this conversation went. I wasn't quite sure how it was gonna go, but I'm glad I'm glad we had this call this talk.
Marc:Do you feel better, Jose?
Josué:It started with us
Link:doing control?
Josué:No. No. We're doing this in real life. There's no It's okay.
Marc:It's okay. You can play Centuraria afterwards.
Josué:Maybe. Maybe. Now I'm reflecting too much on it.
Marc:I just ruined Terraria.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Closing thoughts, Link.
Link:I just really love video games and talking about video games. And even though it was admittedly a little embarrassing to bear my soul in this way, I think this was a good conversation. And it is nice to be able to share with my beloved co hosts those vulnerabilities, and how I'm, you know, dealing dealing with it. Little self treatment through video game.
Josué:Yep. Yep. Mark, closing thoughts?
Marc:Jamaica, I wanna go back and play some Minecraft right now.
Link:It's already downloading. Oh, no. What happened?
Marc:Oh, no. It's already on. I've actually been playing this What? Whole
Link:I've been playing the whole podcast?
Josué:Yeah. Terraria is it now. Sims is it for you now. Wonder when we'll revisit this when there are some other, like, you know, games that scratch other. I don't wanna say scratch is an itch.
Josué:It's more like it's much more like fulfilling a need than scratching an itch. Yeah. Thank you, Terrier, for continuing to be updated. It is a it's a beautiful thing to see. Alright.
Josué:Let us know if any of these resonated with you and if there are games that serve this kind of purpose for you. Like Mark said, your life is out of control. You're playing games to feel some control.
Link:Do you have housing anxiety? Play a house building game.
Josué:Oh, yeah, let us know in any of our community spaces. The links are in the show notes. For more geek therapy visit geektherapy.org. Remember to kick out and do good. I'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
