Dave Made a Maze & Feeling Trapped
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona, and I'm joined by Lara Taylor.
Lara:Hey.
Josué:And Link Keller.
Link:Hello.
Josué:Link, what's up?
Link:Hey. Tonight, I wanna talk to you about a movie called Dave Made a Maze. It is 2017 fantasy adventure horror comedy film that I watched a couple years ago and really enjoyed and thought it would make a fun episode for us during spooky season in that it is spooky adjacent but not too scary.
Link:Okay. And also, I feel like it's thematically rich And we can talk about a lot of other connections to these, you know, the the idea of amaze. Amaze in media. What does it mean to put amaze in your media? So I rewatched Dave made a maze a couple of days ago, so it would be fresh.
Link:But you guys also watched it, right?
Lara:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Josué:I just finished watching it. Yep. A couple hours ago.
Link:Nice. How? How did you guys enjoy it? Let's just do a temperature check right at the top.
Lara:I liked it. I thought it was great. I really liked the I don't know, the creativity with the murder scenes and the gore. Beautiful. Wonderful.
Josué:I I liked it less than Megalopolis.
Link:Interesting. Okay.
Josué:That's my that's my that's my
Link:I do I am tempted to follow that thread. But, okay. Yeah. No, I I think that this movie is very charming. I I think the set design and practical effects that they use are so cool and really fun to watch.
Link:And I like the story, I think is an interesting, maybe not, you know, groundbreaking new unique story. We maybe have heard tales about people trapped in mazes before. Here or there once or twice. But, yeah, I think I think it's a I think it's a cool movie, cool starting spot to have a conversation about, like, the way that we use mazes as symbols in in culture, the way that it shows up in media.
Josué:Yeah. I don't know how how how relevant it will be, but I I didn't like the movie, not because of what it did, but because of what it didn't do.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:Mhmm. It's like everything you described, there are lots of things about it that I like. But I felt that there were so many the strongest feelings I have are about, like, missed potential and and things that getting didn't go further, or stuff like that. That that's those are my feelings about it. But the creativity part and the visuals and all that stuff is is really, really cool.
Link:I want to I kind of want to go full spoilers so that you can you can explain that more specifically.
Josué:Sure.
Link:Are you open to that?
Josué:Yes. Spoilers for 2017. Which part specifically? Like
Link:that? Just what was a missed a missed potential that bothered you.
Josué:Then to to do that, I think we should we should talk about what it what it's doing or what it or what what in my
Lara:What the actual the what the movie is.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How about yeah.
Josué:Let's talk about what is there before we talk about what isn't there.
Link:Good. That's a good that's a good idea. Logical. It tracks good foundation. Yeah.
Link:The scaffolding. Listeners.
Lara:You know, it's all it's all just us being exhausted 40 year olds, you know, 41 year olds.
Josué:Alright. So the the like you said, building on what you said, like, right, so Dave builds a maze, makes a maze, and he it's made out of cardboard. It's in the middle of his living room. He gets lost inside of this cardboard maze. Now you may be thinking, what kind of living room is this?
Josué:How large is this? Right? And here's where there's a either fantasy or sci fi element to it.
Lara:It built the TARDIS.
Josué:Basically.
Link:Bigger on the inside.
Josué:It's way bigger on the inside. From the outside, it doesn't look any bigger than, I don't know, like a refrigerator box kind of, you know, with a few other boxes on top of it. But it has an entrance. And then once you go inside, then it's it's it's a whole other world inside. There's a huge maze or a labyrinth as one of the characters.
Lara:Enough for like, what, like, six people, seven people in there or something like that.
Josué:To to what to walk around? I mean, I like 12 people go in, I think. Yeah, going in. Yeah, and get lost. And there's a minotaur and monsters and anatomies and all sorts of stuff throughout the throughout their lots of different rooms, lots of different spaces.
Josué:And ultimately, he gets lost, and then his friends and his partner go in after him
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:To to get him. And yeah. That's, I think, the main that's what's happening. Right? That's not an explanation of what's happening.
Josué:That's that's what's happening in the movie. So where where do you want me to go? Like, like, I go, which area do you want me to add to? So then I can say what I think is is missing?
Link:I'm not sure because I'm not sure where you're going. I'm I'm willing to follow you. Okay.
Josué:This isn't this isn't this isn't a critique of the movie. Right? This is my my feelings about where I think they wanted to go and where I think, like, it just wasn't satisfying for me. But I believe that the central premise is that Dave feels like he has he is currently stuck in his life. He literally says that he made something because he felt like he hadn't made anything.
Josué:He felt like he hadn't made anything of of value. He wasn't successful. He explains that he's getting money from his parents. There's a line where he says, I'm I'm broke right now. I still got money from my parents.
Josué:And and when you're broke, that just means that you're broken. So, like, he feels like he has not he doesn't feel good about where his life is right now, and he feels like he's not contributing, not accomplishing anything, or and hasn't accomplished anything. Mhmm. And there's also and and this isn't implied. These are, like I'm just paraphrasing parts of the of what he says.
Josué:Another party says, I made this so that I could so that I could make something. He also says, I never finish anything. I start things and I never finish them.
Lara:This sounds like five or six or maybe more conversations I've had with clients this week.
Josué:This is this is this is this is where it gets me. Mhmm. Because that premise and that feeling
Lara:is Is so common.
Josué:So relatable.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:And so and it's actually it I I think it's such a cool idea for the core of of a movie. And then I I don't think it it it goes far enough for it to be more than a conversation starter for me. Like, I don't see the it never gets into any other than that one monologue from from Dave, I don't feel that he explains that more. And then I don't really feel that there's a great resolution about about it. I'm not sure that he learns anything throughout it or that anybody else learns anything.
Lara:To be fair, not too many people are left to learn anything.
Josué:There's there's
Lara:There's a few, but
Josué:Yeah. People people die.
Link:I think
Josué:in the box.
Lara:Mhmm.
Link:I agree with what you're saying in that there, there are very few moments in which Dave is explicit in verbalizing what is going on with him that one scene is really the only time we get that sort of proof of his internal experience. But I do think in the context of him creating like an artistic structural work, and him having this hang up about and not just coming from him, what is repeated about him by his friends and family are all like he starts stuff, but he doesn't finish it. And so in the context of like specifically artistic endeavors of the the idea of making art and like finishing and putting it out there that it can be consumed by other people and it's not just ideas and sketches. I do feel like that aspect, because we are seeing these these beautiful cardboard sets that are like we are seeing the interior of Dave's experiences through that way. So it's not explicit it's all implied it's all vibes from the rooms that they're moving through the creatures that inhabit these spaces, obviously the minotaur is the big one because if you have a maze, you have to have a Minotaur.
Link:But, you know, you see the little birds and later on the like replica of his friend as like a paper craft, sort of unclear if that is a like a transformative thing that has actually happened to this character or if that is a representative of the way that like Dave internalizes the things his friends say about him, and stuff like that I do think that that the more sort of artsy side of that sort of gives it more depth but I do agree with what you're saying where it is just like one conversation that they have about it. I think the, the, like the big emotional payout scene with Dave and his girlfriend talking over like a kitchen counter, where the kitchen is their regular kitchen and then progressively becomes more cardboard as they repeat this conversational exchange back to each other in this sort of mirroring moment. I think that is supposed to be like the main emotional outcome part. But I do think like that sort of like artistic performance art stuff, which maybe does or doesn't fit with like the comedy vibe of the other stuff that they do in the movie.
Link:You know what I mean? Mhmm.
Josué:What what what are you even saying? What did you what did you just say after that?
Lara:Link said words.
Link:I said a lot of words. Basically that I agree that I think Dave's issues of feeling trapped and unable to find fulfillment in like making and completing something artistically is more like Dave's idea of feeling trapped very relatable to all people. I think in this case it is very much coming from like an art, an art artist perspective.
Lara:Yeah. So then he creates something that can't really be finished.
Link:Well he creates something that he can't finish alone also is self creating. Yeah. But I think the more important part is that he has made something that he tells people don't come in, it's dangerous in here. And they all choose to come in anyway. They all ignore I think that is the aspect of the like finishing art.
Link:It's not literally the like, I put the last coat of paint on it and now it is finished. It's like, I have shown it to somebody. It exists outside of just my internal self now it exists as a physical space that other people can engage with. Metaphorically.
Josué:Yes.
Lara:Or actually, because, you know, crawling into a cardboard box, but metaphorically.
Josué:Yeah. A lot of people died in in this maze. Some of them were his friends. Some of them, I don't think cared about him. Some probably didn't even know who he was.
Josué:Yeah. But as a conversation starter, I think I think I think it works well. Because I am curious how people would interpret it differently. Because when I hear the I I see like, him making this thing and kind of literally getting lost in it. And I see this in, like, I'm I'm stuck.
Josué:I don't know what to do with this thing. I don't know. It's not just like I don't know how to finish it. I don't know what to do with it. Like, made this thing.
Josué:I don't know what to do. As it I get I get the the if you're talking about it as a work of art, right, and how it's experienced and whether it's finished or not, and can you ever finish it, and and what does it mean, and etcetera. I also I can also see just the that sense of general identity and accomplishment of to me, I thought of attachment in a way. Like, he's making this thing and he maybe he doesn't wanna let go of it. And at the end of it, he has to does a whole ritual and everything about how to, right, how to how to let go of it in the in the end.
Josué:Right? It's like now that I made this thing, really the only like, the logical next step is that I now I need to I need to get away from it. And so he does go through that.
Link:I like what you said about it. It's like I made something, but I don't know what to do with it. And I like that how that that idea is really reflected in the the part where it's like, in order to defeat and escape the maze, we have to destroy just I'm doing air quotes, destroy the heart. And Dave says why didn't make one. And I think that that that can absolutely be used in the artistic sense of like I'm creating I'm making art but there's no heart in it.
Link:I don't care about what I'm making but also as you're saying it's just the idea of like I'm making something but I don't know what to do with it, like, what do I do now I'm like, you know, I'm doing the steps I'm supposed to do in my grown up life to get job or whatever. Connect with other people I'm doing all the steps but like what I didn't build
Lara:the what does it mean.
Link:Yeah, what do I do what am I doing with it why, why am I doing it. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Because he says, like, I'm 30 years old. And again, it's that it's that, like you said, half your clients, Lara. Week. Right?
Lara:Half my clients this week. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. It's I still wasn't satisfied with with with any of that the way though the way that it was done, or or or where it ended up, or how he like, I don't understand how where he ended up at the end. Right? And, like, I can I think I can reflect on that?
Josué:Right? Like and and not from, like, the the the critique sense of, like, well, why does it matter? Why do you need an answer? I mean, just like, for for the purposes of of using it in this way, I don't I don't see I don't know that he learned anything. I don't know that anything that he gained anything.
Josué:I don't know that anybody gained anything at the end of it. Those are the things where I'm like, if they did, there was no indication to me of that. And those are some of the things that are that are missing about it. Like, after having gone through that ordeal, after having destroyed it, like, what? How how you doing, Dave?
Josué:Like, maybe you still don't know what's next, but how do you feel? How did that feel? It didn't it didn't give me any of that. So I can only Interesting.
Link:I think that that lot that scene where where Dave and his partner mirror each other over the counter, where they're talking about like, there's only enough coffee for one cup of coffee, so you should have it. And then repeated again with a glass of wine and then sort of that it was all obviously very metaphor and you read into it what you read into it but I took that as like the lesson that that Dave was learning from this experience that it was okay that he was feeling stuck inside the maze of himself that it was okay to lean on other people. And that while yes, sometimes they might get hurt, they might feel annoyed. It might be like bad situations like it's, it's not. Doesn't mean it's not worth it to still like connect to people and reach out to them and be let people inside of your maze.
Link:And then I think that I think that that is more formalized in the final scene of our survivors or the people that you can claim are like most invested in Dave are all working together to clean up the cardboard. I think that I see that as sort of representative of Dave having this like emotional outburst of like I feel like a terrible person I don't know what I'm doing with my life. I, I'm broke I am broken, I am, you know, like, turning fully in toward himself, and getting lost in that looking in toward himself space, and the resolution to that is cleaning up your room with your friends, and the people who love
Lara:you. Yeah.
Link:But again, that is that is me that is me projecting right that is reading into like how the shot is is you know the the wider shot we're getting for the cleaning up the room versus when they were you know showcasing the boxes in the house before is a very different setup to how we are seeing this space. And I think that's supposed to be reflective of that Dave is also seeing this space differently.
Josué:Yeah. I, I saw the scene where and and yes, I think so for for a context of the scene where Dave and his partner are going through this, like, exchange repeatedly is when they are when they have figured out that they need to create and the heart of the maze. And they keep moving through and saying, like, is this like, are we far enough? Like, can we do it here? And it's like, no, no, not yet.
Josué:He's like, no, no, no, not yet. No, no, we're not there yet. We're not there yet. And she keeps asking, like, are we there now? No, we're not there yet.
Josué:And then it cuts into this very metaphorical, kind of surreal scene where they're sitting in the kitchen. The way I interpreted it was as if he was as if they were peeling back layers, but also, like, going back in time. Because it was, like, later in their relationship, they're very much like, hey, like, you didn't have to get up. I'm like, no, man. You know, I kinda like, wanna see you, whatever.
Josué:It's like, what are you doing today? It's like, oh, you know, the usual thing, wow. Sure. You're gonna really impress them with that one. But then they keep saying the same way.
Josué:Then as it keeps going, as as it keeps going, the tone changes. And it feels like we've remember how we how we were before.
Lara:Getting back to the heart of the relationship.
Josué:Well, that's what I that's how I felt it was. Right? It was like, I'm remembering no. Relationship is a strong word here. Don't don't like like, none of the other characters matter here, I think.
Josué:Like, there's no there's no information. I read something later that was, like, the movie doesn't even bother to tell you why the girlfriend was away or what she does or anything about her. Like, she serves the only purpose that she serves there is to, like, she's there in the service of Dave, 100%. Like,
Lara:there's She no
Link:brings the box cutter. Mhmm.
Lara:That is her that
Link:is her purpose in the narrative. You can you can make a metaphor to
Josué:That didn't
Link:matter. Reflect on team's life, but that is what she brought the box cutter.
Josué:But it didn't matter because he
Lara:had a persona
Josué:at the end with him the whole time.
Lara:His name is in the movie. Her name isn't in the movie. I don't even remember where her name is. I also saying. It
Josué:was Annie, but it was
Lara:Dave's movie.
Josué:Yeah. No. Look. Look. That that's a
Link:whole Yeah.
Josué:It's a whole thing. But but they they're going back. Right? They're going back through. And then they get to a point where, like, they both look like they are I would say it's more like they're closer to the beginning of the relationship when they liked each other, and they were supportive of each other.
Josué:And only then is he like, okay, now I'm ready to actually create the heart of the situations, which I don't I don't know. I'm not sure what he it's it's almost like he tapped in, like, Larry was gonna like, like, the heart it's like he tapped into a feeling that he couldn't remember. Like, he had lost.
Lara:Doing like doing like couples work. Like one of the things is thinking about why you got into the relationship in the first place and what it was like in the beginning. So like, him tapping into the piece of I mean, we're using relationship as a loose term, even in the sense of the movie, she is represented as his girlfriend. Right? So it's like tapping into the beginning of the relationship where it actually had meaning and there was feeling there and like something something there.
Lara:So same thing with, okay, he's there in this, like, I'm feeling and I feel more myself moment. Right? Yeah. And he's able to say, okay, we're ready now. I'm ready now.
Lara:We're here. Let's do this.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. The more I think about that team, the more I don't like it. I don't like
Link:because Go ahead.
Josué:When Lara said that, the relationship, I was like, wait a minute, what relationship? There's that's a
Lara:There's a There's a the the thing is the movie only gives you a certain lens and it's Dave's movie. So like, you don't have to see all the there's so many rest of the relationship that you didn't see. And we never get to see.
Josué:No. It's not it's not really it's don't get that's all of the thing. The perspective of the movie is not really it's not that.
Link:Yeah, it is it I agree it is it doesn't have a strong central character that we're like, this is Dave's maze. This is Dave's story, but we spend relatively less time with Dave than we do with other characters. But those other characters do not get three dimensions beyond what they are bringing to Dave's mage. Maze, I agree with that fully. That is all true, David.
Josué:And and the the the maze ends up being literal in a way that again, this is just this is just like I I'm the maze is completely literal in the sense that there's like, everybody sees and experiences it the same exact way. Like, there's no like, at the beginning, someone's like, is this even real? It's like, what are somebody just, like, I don't know, this stuff hurts you in the same way. It's like, there's no there's no explanation for any of it. But everybody's experience is the same.
Josué:Right? So it's not like, I wish it was like, oh, no. This is this is this is what Dave is saying. It's not
Lara:You just described so many horror movies, Josue, where there's no context for what the you're experiencing and you're it's up to interpretation of the viewer, which is beautiful. Right?
Josué:I like lots of movies. This one, no. I didn't like the way this one this one.
Lara:Didn't Husswei is not a fan of the metaphorical movies. Got it.
Josué:No. That's not that's not that's that's far from true. That's far from true. It's it's it's this one. It's this right.
Josué:This conversation that we're having in this central part here, this I I don't know. I'd it didn't I didn't see the the resolution for for anybody there. Even that part of, like, okay. Now I've that's what I needed. I needed to remember why I'm like, yeah.
Josué:But, like, you're you're not you're not Yeah,
Link:sort of centralizes their relationship as as his heart. Right. Just sort of a weak storytelling based on the other setup that they've done. I do think as we're talking about this another way to read that sort of wrap up scene is in that as they repeat this conversation back and forth to each other and most of their interactions have been sort of like mild annoyance up till then. And then as they have this conversation, it get like their tone changes and becomes more loving and connected and like meeting each other on the same level kind of way but as they are having that conversation, the room that they are in is becoming more and more cardboard.
Link:Like there is certainly a reading to that of being like this is Davis is just in the like, true labyrinth of there are not multiple paths you are always on a singular path going deeper into the labyrinth that that Dave does Dave hasn't gotten out of the labyrinth he's just on another he's made a turn on another loop. Just kind of dark, not the reading I had, but could be there could be there. And I think that is also a way that could resonate with people this idea of being like, I'm feeling trapped in the maze. It's like, oh, well, you're supposed to, like, talk to people, talk to your community. It's like, well, I talked to somebody and I still feel I'm in the maze.
Link:It didn't it didn't feel like it changed anything.
Lara:Which then that could reflect on the quality of the relationship that is basically nonexistent. But, like, rather than the relationship being his heart, it might just be more of a him remembering a time when he was happy. Right? When he was more himself, whether it was relationship is the centerpiece of it or not. Getting back to a time before when you felt not trapped.
Lara:And maybe the relationship is where he feels trapped to. So
Josué:I I wish I had the the media studies vocabulary to describe what I'm what I'm thinking now. But there's and and actually, there's a theme. Part of this is what bothered me in the Sailor Moon discussion. Right? Where where basically Dave is is Serena, and he's he before they have the scene in the kitchen, like, if I remember correctly, Annie actually changes her mind.
Josué:Right? And she's like, she's she she stops being so ambivalent and kind of annoyed, like you said. And she decides and you can see, like, you can see the change in her face and she stands up and she says she's like, no, finish it. Like, you're gonna finish it and I'm gonna help you. Let's go.
Link:Yeah, she shows a clear investment.
Josué:Yeah, yeah.
Link:Which I think maybe that is like sort of the the reflection that's happening is we see her showing the investment and then we have the scenes of being like, oh, there's there's not enough of coffee wine, a resource there is not enough of this resource for two servings and being like, that's okay, I want to share it with you.
Josué:Yeah,
Link:of her being like, like, yes, I will I will help you finish this maze. Yeah, there's not enough maze juice in your cup. But there's enough maze juice in my cup. I don't know. It's kinda weak.
Link:I'll keep thinking about it.
Josué:We're trying so hard right now to to connect things here. But that that is that is possible. But I guess it I guess I don't like I don't I don't like the feeling of her at the beginning of the movie, I I see a a woman who is independent and tired Mhmm. And basically taking care of a child, of a man child at this point. Right?
Josué:Like, there's nothing at the beginning of the movie that shows, like, I remember how you were before, or, like, I love you so much, and it's so bad that you're suffering. It's like, I am beyond you. Like like, that whole beginning like, I think it it felt like more in character if she would've just walked out, like, call me when you're done than actually sticking around and trying to help.
Lara:But she had the box cutter. Come on, Houseway.
Josué:I I again, the whole beginning is is weird. And so but it does feel like, oh, like this. What it feels like now as we're discussing it, I'm seeing it as a story of a man who can't perform, who cannot accomplish without a woman or or this partner in his life to help him move forward. And after he complains about the fact that his parents are helping him, he goes and relies then on his partner to to actually move forward and get everything done. And I feel bad for the partner.
Josué:I'm like, you deserve better. Like, what what what are what are we doing? And then there's no context for
Lara:the us to remember her name. Okay.
Josué:That's part of it. Part of it is like, you're just there in the service of that. And I guess that it also, maybe weird, but, like, I I have recently watched because you mentioned that link, think, Kevin can fuck himself.
Lara:Nice.
Josué:Right? Right? And it's it's that kind of thing. Right? Like, what I'm seeing if I'm seeing sure.
Josué:Dave is the main character. He doesn't do like like, I'm not rooting for him because of what the partner is going through necessarily. Remember, from from from the support and mental health and and and health aspect, period, I believe Dave needs support.
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:But I I I it doesn't sit well with me that it's like the the way that this plays out. Right? Like, he's not that this this character is there, like, in service of him without any identity or or anything else of of her own.
Lara:So you believe that Dave needs support, but also believe in her agency and her, like, well, like, she should have been able to just I'm a walk out the door, you finish your maze, and I'll see you later. Like,
Josué:no, it goes back to the what I said before about how the character isn't developed enough. So the character is written only in a sense that I can I only see her in the movie, as, like, bringing him from like, carrying him?
Link:Yeah. You know, actually, I think Kevin Can Fuck Himself is actually a really great connection point here in that so much of what's cool about Kevin Can Fuck Himself is how they showcase these unreliable narrators, like through the cinematography, but we get to see like the sitcom world is how Kevin sees the world and sort of psychically pulls everyone into that space. You could apply that same kind of framing to how we see all of the characters in Dave made these are all Dave's internal representations of these other people that they're this is all metaphor. And that the way that Dave sees Annie in the beginning is that she is tired of his shits. She is like annoyed with having to carry his weight and everything in that that moment of change is like her sort of pushing into his internalized idea about like, no, I'm I'm willing to join you on this.
Link:Like, I'm not going to abandon you because you haven't finished the maze. And so there, there could like that could be a very cool way of reading it in that like the, the way that she is acting and then that that sudden change where we don't get any sort of depth to her internal experience of that. But if we're looking at it is this is just through Dave, having a metaphorical breakdown and being like you hate me, you think I'm a burden, you think I'm broken and her being like, No, you just there's not enough coffee for both of us. We can share.
Josué:I would be more satisfied with with that. You
Link:could add just small little things and really wrap that bow up very nicely but I didn't consider it until you brought up Kevin can fuck himself because that show does such an excellent job of being like legitimately the lighting change the aspect ratio how close the camera is to the characters, very obvious visual changes in between like who, whose perspective we are embodying at any given moment. And so that that is a very interesting way to apply that one to Dave made a maze of being like this is all just very much inside of Dave's head.
Josué:Yep. I think I think I may have to. I think I'll just sleep easier if I just add that bit. And anything that contradicts that in the movie, I'll just try to forget it.
Link:The perfect way to consume media.
Josué:I'm gonna make my own edit of it, and then it'll be it'll be
Lara:It's not the director's cut. It's the host's cut.
Josué:It's it's yep. Yep. Yep. I
Link:think that's how you're supposed to engage with stories. Right?
Josué:I think so.
Lara:That is why fan fiction is so popular. Hell, yeah.
Josué:Yeah. That's more satisfying.
Link:Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like that a lot. I do wanna gear shift us a little bit because I did also recently watch Chaos on Netflix.
Link:Rest in peace. It's already been canceled.
Josué:Really? Woah. Yeah. Heart heart heart
Lara:that's on my list of
Link:I think I think it does work as a short series like one season. It still works. It's not like leaves on a annoying kind of cliffhanger. It is a fun time. I like the there's lots of queer representation and some cool costume and set design doing like modern Greek mythology stuff.
Link:But one of the one of the subplots that is going on in chaos is King Minos and his daughter Ariadne Ariadne Ariadne Ariadne and the Minotaur. And so we got a bit we got a maze. It's not really a maze. They sort of just a dungeon of in in chaos, but this idea of having a underground, like, confusing space to get lost in that has a monster inside of it. And how that idea shows up, like, obviously, talking about Greek myth, that's pretty old, but it keeps showing up in modern stories too.
Link:So I think that there's something in obviously we talked about early on, like relating, you know, Lara your clients relating to that feeling of like I'm feeling like lost and trapped. Very specific kind of maze feel. Is my moment I'm going to take it. Mazes have dead ends. Labyrinths have a singular path.
Link:Are not dead ends and labyrinths.
Josué:Oh, So
Link:the movie labyrinth, misnamed, still a really fun movie also about that combination of being both lost and trapped and I think that that metaphor connects a lot of people connected to that and that's why that imagery continues in our storytelling today. But I do I do like that. You could just have the, the metaphor of the maze of feeling I am both lost in a space and unable to escape it, but that a monster is there is so much a part of the story that there if you have a maze there must be if you have a labyrinth that there must be a metatars within it like I think that that is so juicy to think about, like the way that people conceptualize the problems, especially when you go back to Dave made a maze that this Dave. The maze is a metaphor of Dave's interior life right and that the way that he sees himself as, as, you know, a failure in whatever way is represented by there is always a monster in the maze. And the way that he says that so it was like, well, course, you're gonna have, if you have a maze, there's got to be a minotaur in it.
Link:I think I think that's really, I think that's juicy stuff. And I think I relate to that. Conceptually, when you like struggling in your own life and being like there's either externalized there's some sort of outside monster or it's internalized where there is some piece of me inside of the maze of my heart that is always hunting my happiness or whatever. I think there's I think there's a lot of layers in there. Lots of twists and turns.
Link:Couple of dead ends, maybe. Maybe. It's a maze, not a labyrinth. So
Josué:so you you called out a monster in your maze. Specific like, like, you know, this monster, this monster, what is it? What? How did you describe the monster just now? What is your monster like?
Josué:For the one you just brought up?
Link:My monster? Yeah. No, I don't know what my monster is. But I think I think people
Josué:But you said something like it's attacking me or like it's like it's not letting me get out or finish or I'm curious how you envision these monsters and
Link:Oh, I see. As just as a distinct like the metaphor of a like physical space that is enclosed around you the the walls of the maze versus that there is something in here. Yeah, that is after me. Or, or alternatively, I there is something in here that is scary to me and inevitably I will meet it, that there is no no escaping from the fact that this in this way it is a labyrinth and not a maze, that there is an inevitable path that while I am feeling in this like trapped space that I will meet the scary thing.
Lara:I was gonna say two things came up when you were describing all this stuff, like, the when you made the labyrinth clarification difference between Labyrinth and Maze, was like, well, the Labyrinth I don't like tight spaces, so I don't do like mazes and stuff at like Ren Fairs or Corn Mazes or anything like that. But a Labyrinth, usually the ones we see today don't have walls on them. There are paths on the ground. But I mean, if you're in one that does have walls, there's the straight, there's one path in and out, but you can still feel trapped with the walls around you and not be able to see the way in or out, which is a great metaphor for, like, being stuck. There is a way and you just need some help figuring out how to get through and get to the other side.
Lara:And then the other thing I was thinking of is when you brought up the dungeon and chaos for the minotaur, that reminds me of, like, the original premise of Dungeons and Dragons. Right? Like, you're in this underground space or you're in a dungeon, and there's monsters in there. And if your DM really likes to screw with you, there might not be any monsters in there. You're the problem, and you have to figure out how
Josué:to get
Link:out. Bring your own monsters.
Lara:And you're always looking, is that a mimic? Is that a mimic? Is that a mimic? Is that thing gonna get me? What if I press this button?
Lara:Yeah. So
Josué:I I agree that there's something juicy there. I wanna I wanna get to the juice.
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:Like so in in Dave's, like, the Minotaur, what what did it what was it? Like, is it Like, I'm trying to think like, is the monster always a specific thing that we're struggling with? Or
Link:I think that depends on the person.
Josué:So it could be something in the context
Link:of it. I think it could be I think it could be incredibly specific where it's like the monster is my mother telling me she's disappointed in me. Or it could be just a more broad like, if we're applying the just more general like artistic need to create Dave is feeling artistically bereft that he can't finish a creation, it could just be the Minotaur is stopping it is the idea of another abandoned project. So you can you can go you can go real broad with the minotaur. You can go right down to the the the tips of the horns.
Link:You know what I'm saying?
Lara:Half my clients talking about feeling trapped this week, and everybody is feeling trapped for a different specific reason. However, I could probably generalize most of it to capitalism. Yeah. So
Josué:But, like, what's the monster that we're trapped with? Because, again, go go back to Dave. He the only thing that they wanted
Lara:to get away from Dave earlier and now I'm
Josué:I enjoy. Get it's I think it's a good conversation starter.
Lara:I feel like the monster that Josue is trapped within the maze is Dave.
Josué:It's Dave. It's too Dave. So they say that the Minotaur in the movie craves freedom. And actually, one of the one of the ways that he that they, like, corral him towards the end is like, oh, is that the exit right there? Oh, how convenient.
Josué:And then it's like, the minotaur just kind of moves in that direction. It craves freedom. What do what do you think the the Minotaur represented in in the maze?
Link:In Dave's maze?
Josué:Yeah.
Link:I mean, on the most basic level I do think it is ultimately the like what they said the idea of if you have a maze there must be a minotaur that these are ideas that cannot be separated. I don't believe that that's true. Think you can separate those ideas. But I think that in this movie that is, it's you need some sort of threats. And so you put a monster, you put a monster in the maze, of course.
Josué:So that's more, like, the rules of the maze more than a metaphorical.
Lara:It's both the rules
Link:of the maze and also the rules of making this kind of adventure movie, right? There has to there has to be a conflict. She'll be an antagonist. I don't know, I would have to think more specifically if I if there was something within there that gave Dave's Minotaur more specificity, I don't think so I they used like a hot guy body with the paper craft bull's head. Like, you know, you could have done something where it was like Dave wearing a bull's head that like you could get more deepened into the specificity of Dave's Yeah.
Link:Minotaur. I think in this case, it is just there needed to be
Lara:a threat. Dave the Dave he can't be. He can't be. Yeah. Maybe.
Josué:But the
Lara:The Dave he wishes he
Link:The Dave he wishes he could be. Buff and headless. I don't know. Yeah, think probably like I said earlier, the easiest draw is just that the Minotaur is representative of the general roadblock in Dave's life of like that is representative of my inability to complete things that I start. I think that would be the most baseline reading.
Link:I do think ultimately it is just like we did it's a maze we got to have a monster we got to have a monster in the maze. It's a dungeon there's got to be a dragon. Neither of those things are true. But the idea of it resonates so deeply.
Josué:Yeah. Okay. I'll stop I'll stop trying to read into it then.
Link:Try trying to shoehorn some never stop. Always always dig a little bit more. Scratch
Lara:the surface.
Josué:I always like to remind myself
Link:Back to cardboard.
Josué:That the artists may or may not have any sort of message intended with their their work.
Lara:So Their message doesn't matter.
Josué:It's what exactly
Lara:the person interacting with that art.
Josué:Exactly. Exactly.
Lara:Pulling from it.
Josué:Exactly. But also, sometimes there is a message. And you're like, wait, wait a minute, did I understand what they were trying to say? Because the minotaur is basically escapes at the end. And and so but I I think I think I will be more at ease as well with the the idea that it's just it was a labyrinth.
Josué:It had to have a monster in it. And at the end, it's just another gag where the minotaur escaped with a bird friend, and now they're gone.
Link:I think that's another another layer of reflecting it back into the real world of like the idea of when we're experiencing like conflict and strife and feeling stuck and trapped and everything of needing to like put it onto an external source of being like this is like everything wrong with my life is because of my shitty boss. That could be true. I'm not arguing that that might be fully true. But that idea of like, needing to direct your emotional discomfort at an external thing. When sometimes, you know, it's internal work that you need to do, that's really is where the the Minotaur is is in your internal maze.
Link:But I do think that there is something about that idea of like we need. There's a human urge to create a monster so that we can externalize the shadow of stuff about ourselves we don't like or stuff about our culture or our experiences sort of monsterize that.
Josué:I was thinking about how, like, how I would have reacted to this movie five years ago or ten years ago. Like, where I am in my life and how I'm looking at it. Yeah. Yes. It's been very that part has been
Link:Yeah. So I mean, similarly, I think I watched it. I watched David Made Amaze for the first time, like early pandemic, I think, I believe is correct. So definitely, my own life and experiences and feelings of like, Oh, it's approaching the 2024. And like, I'm looking for a job and I'm, know, feeling unfulfilled in certain ways and like, you know, how how do I respond to rerouting this thought?
Link:How I connect more with Dave as a character versus Annie who spends most of the time being our like main screen protagonist main character, and how you are very much connected host way you are very connected with like Annie, you're being like mistreated you're carrying this man show some self respect get out of there like you don't have to put up with this like you can just leave babe get out of there. Versus like very much I probably first time watching very much more related with her, then now where I am very much reading into this the idea of like him having this resolution moment of realizing like, it's okay to like, feel this way and lean on your support people. So yeah, yeah, definitely. Think different, different life context. Yeah, different time, what's going on in our world in the real world when we watch this stuff that all that stuff all matters.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Stupid Dave. That should be
Link:the end of the
Lara:episode right there, stupid Dave.
Josué:It it's funny because we in in last week's episode or the the last was it a lot? No. Oh, yeah. No. We did record last week.
Josué:I I I thought I thought Lara didn't, but we did. So Mark felt like he he seemed very annoyed with a particular character. And towards the end, like, I I kept I kept kind of pushing him and pushing him until the end. He was like, yeah, because that character was me. Like, like, like, that's like the worst version of me, and I don't like that version of me.
Josué:Yeah. And and when when when I come here and I said, like, I didn't like something, I'm talking about, like, I don't like the way it made me feel. And and so in that sense, again, this movie works as a as a good conversation starter. I think I think sometimes it is very good when things are not when things are more implicit and offer interpretation. I don't think this movie is that.
Josué:I don't I still don't think this I think it tries to lay out everything for you and it's like, oh, is that is that it? But if I if I if I do my cut on it and I and I
Link:I'm sorry. It's it gives it gives you artistic space to come up with your own meanings, but it is ultimately paper thin.
Josué:This is funny because it's
Link:made of cardboard.
Josué:Exactly.
Link:Fine. Actually, all the choices they made were on purpose because they were trying to keep it shallow cardboard like.
Josué:So I'll tell you my my favorite thing that that from the movie that I that needed needed some explanation, needed to be explained to me by the director of the movie for me to appreciate it completely. But there is a room in the movie that they go to that the director calls the perspective room. And it was this really cool room where, like, things are out of, like, the it's it's one of those visual effects where you see a chair that's really up close to the camera. Or I mean, there's a chair that's very large in the center of the room, or just like in the center of the room. But it just turns it turns out that it's just a very tiny chair, very close Yeah.
Josué:To the Mhmm. And you can't you don't realize that until someone walks up to it and kind of touches it, and then you realize then you could see their perspective. So the perspective room, it's a good scene to watch multiple times because everybody in that room it's the only time really when everybody in the movie is interacting with the space differently. And so, like, there's this one moment where one character sees a cup on a table and he's reaching for it, but the other character lifts it up. And to them, it's huge.
Josué:And, like, so they're holding this huge cup at the the other character, and they're like, wait, what? And another character, like, walks behind a a picture that's hanging on a wall, and the the only well, Annie, the the girlfriend, she's looking at this, like, portrait of herself on the wall, and then another character basically walks behind it because it's also just hanging, like, close to you. And she's like, wait, what? Like like, it's impossible to understand how what each of them are looking at. But that was, I think, the most I don't know.
Josué:I I really appreciated that that
Link:particular Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Because it's happening, like, multiple times all at once in this one room. And that was really cool. That was really cool.
Lara:That's a good, like, personification. Like, it it shows the perspective of like, you go into two people experience the same thing, and it's not the same thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:Again, to be clear, it's the only time in the movie that that happens. I wish it wasn't, but it is the only time. And it's explicit in the perspective room. Okay, did we did we did we cover all the points that you were hoping to cover?
Link:Yeah, I think we had good conversation. I a couple of different reads on it, which is sign of a good movie in my opinion. Yeah. I hope people check it out. It's a fun time.
Link:And let me know what your read on on it was. And, oh, I guess I want to know if people can think of more examples of media with stories with mazes and minotaurs in it, or labyrinths mazes. If they're called labyrinths, I'll accept it. But no in my heart. I'm like, if it has dead ends, it's a maze.
Link:I'm do I do it every time. Mostly inside voice, but I do it every time.
Lara:Also judge people with wyverns and dragons.
Link:I don't.
Josué:It's not a judgment.
Link:It is something that I do I do the internal correction for. It's not a judgment if you don't know or you use the words colloquially interchangeable. That's that's fine. I don't take umbrage with it. But in my head, am like, don't you mean Wyvern?
Link:It only has two legs.
Josué:There's a character in the movie, Gordon. That's like, he's he's the one pointing out that it's a labyrinth. So Link, you're like, thank you. Thank you. He was but he was wrong.
Link:He's wrong. He's not elaborate. They had dead ends. They set it up like the scene right before or right after that where they're like, ah, a dead end. I was like, that's a maze.
Link:But but this is this is where it gets fun. If you're using it as a metaphor for like your life's journey, whether or not it is a it has dead ends in it, you are taking a singular forward path through the space. So therefore, ultimately is a labyrinth. But it's a maze because it's got dead ends.
Josué:But what if you can cut through? And at any point?
Link:If you can use your box cutter, then you're doing it right, I think.
Josué:What is it then? Is the best the best thing. What is?
Lara:It's still a maze. Mhmm. Still a maze, but
Josué:Okay. A more fun I know we wanna wrap up, but I think I think that'll that'll be my big takeaway from it is that I I like the idea of realizing that the maze and or labyrinths in your life often are not what you think they are. And those balls are not solid, and you can cut through them.
Lara:It's all
Link:about perspective.
Josué:A lot of kind of? But it's it's like there's this realization that can come from it. Right? And and and I I think that's I don't know how much it it affected my view of the movie, but it's definitely what's most different about my life today than it was five years ago or ten years ago, is I feel way less trapped than I used to. And and so, like yeah.
Josué:And and that was that was a very interesting thing to see. And so to to see a a maze made of cardboard where people are, like, stressing out and dying over, it's like, you could you could just you could just plow right through the middle. What what are you doing? Oh, you had a catano with you this whole time? Thanks, Dave.
Josué:If you wanna say any any final words, Lara, you wanna wanna share?
Lara:Find some people in your life that will help you find your way through the maze or, know, bring a box cutter.
Josué:But don't feel obligated to help people.
Lara:Don't feel obligated to help people.
Link:Yeah, I don't I don't think there's a moral failing and choosing not to dive into somebody else's maze. I think that's okay. I think you're only obligated to cope with your own maze and your own minotaur.
Lara:Unless everybody else
Link:is as often.
Josué:Yeah. So so I went to question, please let us know what what are your favorite maze, labyrinth stories, Monsters? Any opinions on this? And, yeah, if you check out the movie, I think it's definitely worth checking. There are movies where I would say, like, it's not worth watching.
Link:It's worth watching just
Josué:Just for the visual.
Link:Just to enjoy the set design and prop making. Like, all of they've they've they've hot glued so much cardboard together to make these beautiful sets. If only for that level, go and enjoy the movie. It's fantastic. If you wanna dive a little bit deeper into the maze, you could do that too.
Link:Join us. We can't help ourselves. We keep
Josué:doing it. Yep. Yep. Let us know in the show notes in the show notes, in the community spaces. Links are in the show notes.
Josué:For more geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. I'm geek out into good, and we'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
