Content Warning: Suicide- A Discussion About Suicide in Storytelling
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Your Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I am joined by Link Keller
Link:Yo.
Josué:And Lara Taylor.
Lara:Hey.
Josué:Alright, team. So usually, when we start a topic, it has to do with, like it's sparked by something recent that happened or that or something recent that that we watched. But this one, I've been playing a game that's 30 years old. So there will be spoilers for a 30 year old game called Final Fantasy six that sparks this conversation.
Lara:Well, that is recent that you've been playing it.
Josué:It's recent for me, of course. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's it's like, it's it's old. It's old.
Josué:We don't usually I mean, it's not the first time, but, you know, but usually, this isn't like the most current thing. I don't know who else is talking about or thinking about Final Fantasy six. There's somebody, but, know, it's not like mainstream or geek consciousness right now. So before we continue, content warning, we will be talking about suicide. So for the for the rest of the episode, that's the the topic.
Josué:I don't know what you're gonna call this episode link, but it should be possibly apparent from the from the title. And so I'm playing Final Fantasy six. Alright? And I was I was very surprised by a particular scene where there was basically, like, a cataclysmic event in the in the world. And then this character wakes up from what happened.
Josué:She's been in a coma. And when she wakes up, she's on this island. There's only one other person alive. And he tells her that everybody else on the island killed themselves because the world was in such terrible shape. And he's so happy that she finally woke up.
Josué:And she's like, oh my god. Like, I can't I can't believe this. Then that guy gets sick and dies. So then the character that you're playing as, you go through the through the event of her also jumping off the same cliff that everybody else kill themselves from. I don't remember if it's if it's just a cutscene or if you walk up to the hill and, like, press a to jump.
Josué:I don't remember if it was that interactive. But narratively, that is what happens. And in in that character's case, she doesn't die and washes up on the on the shore. But I was very, very surprised by like, I started thinking, how often does suicide come up in a video game or in in media in general. Like, it happens, but sometimes it's I was thinking of, like, a very special episode type of thing, right, where it's, a big deal.
Josué:But here, it was just like, oh, it was part of the story. This thing happened, and then we we continue. It was just but the way it was presented seemed I mean, it was dramatic, right, in the sense, like, many, many people kill themselves. Then, like, I I started thinking about that. And then last week, there was a just a couple days ago.
Josué:Right? There was a a new episode of doctor who, which is considered a children's show, pretty much. And they're on the spaceship, and then something happens and they're trying to solve this mystery. And it's like, oh, the captain of the ship killed themselves. And and then they're, like, corpses just, like, flying around.
Josué:And it was just very casually mentioned, like, oh, yeah. No. The captain killed themselves. Like, obviously, that's what happened. And then they just they explained why and what they were trying to do and etcetera, but, like, it was just part of the story.
Josué:It just kept going. It wasn't wasn't, like, a a dramatic pause or anything. It was just a realization, and then they kept going. So and so, like, that reinforced the idea of, like, oh, but let's talk about this because I am I have questions for you guys. And I know I I think the last time we have spoken in-depth about this was back when we did 13 reasons why coverage.
Josué:That conversation was very just like as a recap. Right? Like, the show that is a show where a character kills themselves at the beginning of the show, and then the entire first season or or the and the book that it's based on is going through all of the events that led up to her deciding to kill herself. There's multiple seasons that don't really have to do with that and and just other horrible things.
Lara:A little bit of fallout from the first season
Josué:that It's really just about cruelty. Right? Like, it's all about the cruelty of American teenagers, really, for the most part, but affluent American teenagers. But we we had a a conversation back then about the the different effects that that suicide has in media and whether or not like, even in the show itself, they they have this situation where they don't wanna talk about the suicide because they believe that it might inspire other students to kill themselves. Right?
Josué:So, like, they're asking people like, they're kind of ignoring it and not talking about it. And I feel like in general, we don't talk about suicide in again, like, I'm I'm curious what what you all think. I I don't I'm pretty sure I've never brought this up before because so my mom died earlier this year and but throughout my life, she attempted suicide multiple times. And I'm only bringing them now because she'd be pissed if she was still alive and I talked about this. She would know.
Josué:She would somehow know.
Link:Her way.
Lara:She's still listening and she's going to haunt you.
Josué:It's fine. It's fine. I don't it's fine. I accept. But I I wouldn't have talked about it when she was when she was alive.
Josué:But this is I mean, so we would discuss this. It was it was something that I would bring up. She was she was more resistant to it, but eventually, it got to the point, like, we we would talk about it. And even when she was really sick, I we we had talked about euthanasia a lot, which is assisted suicide since I was a kid because she was pretty sick through our life at different times. And in the last few years, when she was really sick, we talked about, like, is this something that we we would actually like, we've been talking about this for decades.
Josué:Is this something that we might finally actually do because, like, why suffer through this through these last few months of this illness when this this is a potential option. It is it is much easier in other countries, and this is also something that happens suicide in general and assisted suicide, I think I think I think they're kind of, like, very distinct topics that could be that could be talked about very differently, but there's still a very cultural and and local aspect of it. Mhmm. Yeah. Like, in some countries, it is illegal.
Josué:Right? It's, like, against the law to to kill yourself. So if you attempt and you survive, there can be criminal repercussions. I don't I don't know if in The States any state has those laws, but other countries do. And so it is again, I I feel like even at the beginning, right, like, we're giving a content warning about it, and I agree with content warnings because it's like, this is a heavy topic.
Josué:But I think and I think we talked about this during 13 Reasons Why. I appreciated that it allowed for a conversation about suicide from many different perspectives because I think I think that the story allowed for that, where we usually don't don't talk about it. And it it's a a it leading cause of death. Like, it's something that happens often. And so there's a lot more.
Josué:So I'm just thoughts on on what I've said so far. Reactions.
Link:Thank you for sharing. I know that's hard. It's hard to talk about this topic at all because we are trained from a young age to to avoid it. Our culture despite our media being very obsessed with death and violence, is really afraid to sort of get into the nitty gritty of death and dying. And so it's always when those opportunities come up to talk about it, I think that's really important that we need more avenues to have those kinds of conversations because it's hard to bring up on your own Out of the blue, just be like, hey, you guys ever thought about killing yourself?
Link:Have you guys heard of the show 13 Reasons Why? Seems like an easier in.
Josué:Conversation starter.
Lara:Yeah. As someone who has to have these conversations several times a day, it is sometimes easier, yeah, to bring up the 13 reasons why or whatever. But no
Josué:Actually, for for context, do you mean this in the sense of, like, that you're screening for suicide? Often, Screening
Lara:Screening for suicide. I don't I don't screen that way. I asked blunt asked blunt I'm
Link:laughing at the pun of screening, of talking about a show. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
Link:I think
Lara:there are points where I have had clients bring up shows to talk about, like, how they've been feeling before ideation begins. Mhmm. But I definitely am I and I have several clients who I am constantly screening, because it is something that could be on the table, and I have to monitor, and have to make sure that they're gonna be okay. I never want to have to And I'm gonna knock on wood. I never want to have to hospitalize somebody or initiate that.
Lara:That's not my job, unless it becomes my job. But having this conversation several times a day about like, well, how bad's the ideation? Have you ever had these thoughts? It it happens, like I said, I think probably, if not in 80% of my sessions, it's a lot. It's a lot of my sessions.
Lara:And I have plenty of people that I'm supporting outside of my work, who I'm concerned about and monitoring from a different perspective. So it's something that's on my mind all the time, and sometimes I wish I could just put it down. So
Josué:how do you bring it up?
Lara:How do I bring it
Josué:in
Lara:session? Again, just a blunt question. Like, have you had any ideation this week? Have you thought about killing yourself this week? Usually, it is something like that.
Lara:I'm not outside. Outside. I'm not necessarily the one bringing up the conversation. Usually, it is Nina doing it in some Nina way. She brings up a joke, and then I then, like, hey, how's how's how are things going with that?
Lara:How are how are the how are the thoughts in your head? They getting any more spicy? Because I try to I try to keep those roles very separate. I'm not my friend's therapist. So
Josué:In interesting.
Link:There's I mean, there's there's there's a there's a, like, a power differential in between two peers talking about this topic and a professional and their clients talking about it. Like, the there there's a mini interlocking systems at play here, which is maybe the one real takeaway I feel, like, I'm hoping people get from this conversation is that like this is many interlocking systems are involved in suicide. It is not just a an individual issue.
Lara:Yeah. Yeah. I mean And then again, when outside, I definitely redirect people to, hey, have you talked about your therapist about this this week? Like, might wanna go check-in.
Josué:Yeah. This is because taking a step back, right, like, including suicide in in conversations that we have with with friends and family. Like, I was talking to my own therapist about this recently where I have two people in particular in my life who I don't think they're doing well. And it's really hard to bring up to somebody and check-in like, hey. How are you, Fionca?
Josué:I'm fine. Why? You seem maybe kinda depressed. That conversation never goes well.
Link:You seem, by definition, not fine. So do you wanna talk or try a different take on that answer this time?
Josué:Yeah. And I mean and and, like, and I know I I do exactly the same thing. I actually ask many friends and I ask family and I I tell my my therapist repeatedly, like, always point something out, right? Like, point out what you're seeing. I mean, especially my therapist.
Josué:That's that's that's that's what I'm paying her for. Right? But but I ask I tell friends and family, like, if you see these signs, if you see particular things, like, point them out and let me know. And even though I ask them, I still get defensive when it happens. Right?
Josué:Because it's just I I think that's that's normal. Right? To to get defensive. Mhmm. So it can be hard.
Josué:So when you said, Lara, that, like, it's something that you have running in your mind often. Right? Even of course, like, one part of it is with with clients. That's why I asked about the screening because like, that is, again, they're
Lara:very Professional role, very specific questions that you're asking. Yep. When was the last time, especially in a first session? Very specific.
Josué:And there's so many different things that they that a client can say, that would prompt someone to just make that check-in, you know, and ask and make sure that you at least have that conversation.
Lara:There's literally a box on my intake that says, any history of suicidal ideation or self harm. And I have to put something in there.
Josué:Yeah. So
Lara:so even if I'm dealing with someone who has no history of depression, anything like that, I have to ask. And a lot of times, even before I hit that question, I'm like, I'm gonna run down a checklist and I have to put things in these boxes. It's okay for you to say, I don't know, or that's not something that's a concern of mine. So
Josué:I I haven't thought about this in years, but do you have a duty to report something like that outside of, like, outside of session? Because like and I don't know if in California, the same laws apply, but in different places when I was licensed, there was a duty to report abuse and and different things that you saw, and you could even be held like, you could be held in violation of your code of ethics for having seen or or witnessed something and not having reported it.
Lara:As far as I know with my license in California, if I'm not in my capacity at work, I don't have to report jack shit. Yeah. If it is in work, I would be I would be in a lot of trouble if I did not report something, if I was concerned that somebody was going had plans, a mean, the means, and the intent to do something. Yeah. But I always have to remind people, don't be afraid to tell me about passive ideation or just ideation because that's something I can work with.
Lara:Yeah. And that doesn't necessarily mean your therapist is gonna send you to the hospital.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Even when I when I before I was a therapist, when
Lara:I when I
Josué:was at a call center, suicide hotline, There was a very basic list of questions. And you would literally just click it, and it would change colors. And if it turned red, then there were different actions that you had to take.
Lara:My last job had something similar and like a suicide risk algorithm that would email us and the client if something
Josué:Which there are so many issues with with those. But the the biggest one, I think, being that in The United States, the system, the law enforcement system that is usually then involved in there, like some states and some cities have trauma response teams that are mental health professionals and nurses versus but most of the time, you're getting the cops called Mhmm. To to go to someone's house, and there are many, many reports of those going terribly wrong. Cops don't know what the fuck they're doing, people get killed, people get shot, which also I think makes it, like, adds to the difficulty of of addressing it. Right?
Josué:Like like, I've been in that situation where I'm like, my neighbor is like, I don't know what's going on next door. I'm worried. I'm like, I'm not gonna call the cops on him because that could be worse. Mhmm. You know?
Josué:So, like, I think that that adds another layer of difficulty at least here in The States to getting involved to that point. Right? Because sometimes, like, how much can you intervene if someone is, you know, has a plan? Or Yeah. Or yeah.
Lara:And when I worked at the group home, we had multiple times of having to call No. Because
Josué:You're only allowed to do so much.
Lara:We're only allowed to do so much. And we had some kids who were actually needing support and feeling suicidal. And then there were other kids that would unfortunately realize, oh shit, they're going to call the cops to take me to juvenile hall. I need to say something and just say, oh, I'm gonna hurt myself. I'm gonna kill myself.
Lara:And then we would call mobile crisis instead. Which, whatever. Fine. Let them not go to juvenile hall. Let them spend the night in the hospital.
Lara:Better safe than sorry. But it was nice that the county I worked in had a mobile response unit that did not involve law enforcement. The only time law enforcement had to come for that kind of thing was if the kid was combative with the people who were there. Yeah. So that was I felt really grateful for that.
Lara:And then having shifted to working in other counties, I hate that I don't necessarily have that option.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So so I, you know, I gave the example that, you know, suicide was just something that we talked about at home. It was something that happened at home.
Josué:I doubt most families are are like that. How do you have either of you ever had situations where you did talk to family or friends about either, you know, about suicide in in general in any way? Maybe it was because of a friend or something that happened.
Link:I have had conversations with friends throughout my life. Nothing specific is really coming to mind as like a standout example of anything valuable to say other than sometimes it comes up. And I I I don't know anybody in my age group who didn't know of someone at their high school died by suicide. And so it's like high school seems to be when that those kinds of conversations would sort of pop up.
Josué:Yeah.
Link:I remember, you know, teens saying a lot of really stupid judgmental shit that I'm sure every single one of them is embarrassed about now. As far as like family, I have talked with my grandmother about suicide before. She brought up a family member example of an attempt an attempt of an attempt sort of vaguely that she told me, and it's always hard to tell with her what she is willing to give to a story. But she's she's brought it up with me, but she she does this thing where she waits until it's like a really like, this is not the vibe. This is not the time to have this conversation.
Link:Why are you bringing that up now? Which is maybe something I need to unpack about how I feel like there is a specific setting in which this conversation isn't appropriate to have with a family member that I do not hold
Josué:the stage.
Link:That I do not hold my friends to that same like, we're having this conversation now. I do not hold people to other people. I don't know. Anyways, interesting. Yeah.
Link:I do wish it it was something that I had heard more from the adults in my life when I was an adolescent because that's and I totally understand why the adults in my life avoid it. Like, how do how do you explain suicide to a nine year old? There are nine year olds who die by suicide. Like, how do you how do you explain that? And and I understand why, like, the urge to avoid discomfort of heavy topics and the idea of just bringing it up at all is scary.
Link:And so and and you see this in in other hard conversations like talking about sex and sexuality between parents and their children. It's like, it's the I'll let the kid bring it up and then I'm gonna I'm just gonna know the perfect response to answer all their questions and it'll be fine and I'll note that they're ready to have the conversation because they brought it up to me and I'm never gonna bring it up to them because what if they're not ready? And so it's like, I can I can logic my way through why the adults in my life avoided that topic with me? But I do think that it was a failure of parenting, that it wasn't something that it's like, this is a reality of the world and I and the people around me are responsible for making you a human being who can participate in the world. So this is something you need to know about.
Link:That said, I live with a child right now, and the idea of bringing that up to her is making me sweaty. Yeah, it's it's it's rough. I do I wish there were more spaces in which these kinds of conversations could occur more organically. Think of, like, death salons are I wish that they were more popular, but they are a thing that happens and, it was like a Victorian thing, I guess, and it has gained more popularity now. A death salon, it's straight up.
Link:It's you hang out with a group of people. You have your teas and your tiny sandwiches, and the point is to meet up with other people and talk about death and dying. Making the space for that. And I think that that is the best idea that I have. Yeah.
Link:But just the idea of making those kinds of spaces where it's it's expected to have that conversation, you're expected to be uncomfortable, sad, angry, all of the feelings that we're generally told like, oh, you're not supposed to have those or you're supposed to be always in control of them or you're only allowed to show them in certain places. Like, okay. We'll we'll make a place for it then.
Lara:Well, when we're talking about death and dying, when we talk about suicide, it's even harder. Right? Yes. Because there's a stigma around it and like this like, it you just don't talk about it. Right?
Lara:You don't wanna bring up the pain for the families that have gone through it. It's very interesting. We I can't remember many conversations about suicide. I'm sure there was probably a kid in my high school who did kill himself, but we didn't talk about it. Just didn't happen.
Lara:So it wasn't a big thing other than my own ideation I had when I was a teenager. It wasn't a thing until adulthood for me to talk about it. I have a friend who lost her brother to suicide, and I spent some time with her and her mom recently, and it was almost refreshing to have them just bring it up part of the conversation. That is part of their life, that this person they lost this person to suicide. Letting them, as people who have experienced it, bring it up and be able to like, yeah, that's a thing, and act like it's a normal thing that happens and not have them feel ashamed to talk about it was a very different experience than most people who sit across from me and say, like, I lost a friend to suicide, and just being kinda nervous to talk about it, and nervous to even admit that they know anything about it.
Lara:So it that was very different experience. But yeah. No. My family doesn't talk about anything. So Yeah.
Josué:Our friend Ali Mattu, he talks about this publicly, but his his older brother died by suicide when he was I think Ali was in college. So I think his brother was in his twenties as well. And, like, Ali is in a position where he's, like, a mental health educator, so he uses that story talk it. And that's like, that's one version of media. Like, this episode is a conversation about suicide, right, where we're looking at it from different angles.
Josué:How or, like, the way I framed this at the beginning and what was the catalyst for this conversation? How old is the person that you're the child in your home, Link, right now?
Link:She is three.
Josué:Three. Okay. That's still pretty small. But, like, I'm just thinking about how many kids watched that episode of Doctor Who on Saturday and looked back at their parents and I was like, what is it what do they mean that the captain killed themselves? Right?
Josué:Like, what does that mean? How how many parents are like, don't you remember the part where the giant hands and the and the the monsters? Or and I and I I just looked this up online, but the the Entertainment Software Association was not surveying the average age of gamers in the early nineties. So I couldn't find that exact number.
Link:Yeah. That was later.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. But it's generally believed that it was much younger than today. And I and I think that's true.
Lara:That it wasn't Interesting. Played Final Fantasy six, I don't even remember this. I think
Link:this is actually a really interesting angle I wasn't thinking about before. But when you were talking about kids watching the doctor who special and asking their parents, the the prevalence of video games and young children who play them and the way that video games have co opted death verbiage as part of game mechanics. I wonder if that has changed the way that that children conceptualize death and dying compared to us compared to our parents, because they didn't have that same kind of omnipresence of that word being used regularly.
Josué:I've yeah. I've thought about this.
Lara:Game over instead of you died.
Josué:Well, it's like I got in trouble at school once when I was like in third grade. I saw a vivid memory of this where we're like playing tag and a girl got me and I'm chasing after her and I'm like, I'm gonna kill you. And the principal was just like, you in my office right now. And it was this long conversation about about that that language. But of course, when you're talking about, like, Fortnite and how popular it is, I was just talking to my
Link:I was just of Fortnite.
Josué:And I was
Link:like, oh, I I ran into the storm and killed myself. It's like, that's something I could imagine every seven year old saying is like, well, what does that mean to the seven year old?
Lara:Oh, I just blew myself up. I just yeah. Mhmm.
Josué:Well, even even as a strategy, right? It's like, caught in the storm. I'm too far. Oh, kill yourself so you can respawn closer. Mhmm.
Josué:You know? Type of thing where yeah. Like, don't know how it well it translates. Right? Like, I don't know how many parents are like, you know, mom, what's suicide?
Josué:And it's like, well, it's like when you die in Fortnite and you don't respawn. You know? It's like it's like, It's like when you play Team Rumble, you know how you respond, but in in Battle Royale, you don't. It's like that. And then the game shuts off and you can't play it ever again.
Josué:Hey. The analogy works. I think I think I think it's good to start that conversation. It it gives it a frame of reference. But how many of those conversations are are happening?
Josué:There's a tool for you to use. Mhmm. Video games can be helpful. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:For that. So have either of you ever been surprised? Like, again, like, these are two I brought up two examples of me being surprised by the fact that suicide was present in these stories. And not just present, but less so in doctor who, but it was still, like, there was a mystery to be solved and the and then the the result resolution. Right?
Josué:Like, when you find out what happened, it was a suicide. And so can you can either of you remember obviously, Lara, you played Final Fantasy six. You don't remember any of this happening. Didn't have a big impact when you were, you know, 10 years old. Yeah.
Josué:But but have you ever had a suicide happen in in media that surprised you to, like just because it was there. Like, because, again, I think it's it I don't know. How many kids shows have suicide and how many Disney movies?
Lara:How many That's so interesting because you you you brought up the topic, and I I started trying to think of examples of like when I've seen suicide in media. And every example other than like 13 reasons why and life is strange went out of my head. But I am sure I'm trying to remember. I watched Beverly Hills 24674, and it does border on the very special episode. However, so much stuff happens on that show that it's not a very special episode because But
Josué:it was. It was a huge deal. I remember this. This was a gigantic deal, right, when this happened.
Lara:Because there was there was one with a suicide, and then there was also one where Kelly attempts.
Josué:Okay.
Lara:And I think whichever one happened later was not one of the very special episodes, but it does become a big deal. But I'm not seeing all the extra media around it and like Yeah. People
Josué:Therapy wasn't around back then. Well,
Lara:yeah. I probably should have been in therapy as a kid, and nobody told So me I had
Josué:but
Lara:that was one of my favorite shows. And I don't remember being shocked by anything. I was sad when characters I liked left the show. The funny thing is the only episode I can think of now, there's two of them, one where they get caught in a fire and one where Dylan's wife gets shot and he leaves the show. Actually, that's what
Josué:I was thinking. I thought I've that's when that's the one that I was thinking, though, was, like, a huge deal.
Lara:I don't know what that was. Huge deal because it was like a like a mob hit, basically. Yeah.
Josué:I remember this
Lara:was a lot. There was a suicide no. The one that was a huge deal. The one that was a huge deal was in the first season where David's friend, one of the main characters of the show, shoots himself on accident and dies. He's playing around with a gun, and he dies.
Lara:And that was a big deal because that was that was when they were first establishing what kind of show it was gonna be. I do remember that one being a big deal. But again, this one was like it was an accident.
Josué:Yeah.
Lara:So it's a little bit different, but in the same vein.
Josué:Battlestar Galactica had one that was that was surprising. And we've talked about it a few times here, at least with Ali when Ali was on. At some point, we talked about this. That one was I remember that one was surprising to me. And but again, it was a huge deal.
Josué:Right? And it was also extremely it was extremely foreshadowed in the in the episode. Right? Like like, it was all about that that happening. And so in a way, I mean, it was still surprising that it happened, but it wasn't I don't know.
Josué:That that's one example. I don't know. Like, was there suicide in the Game of Thrones novels and Harry Potter? And, you know, like, huge media, Star Wars, Disney? No.
Josué:Like, all of these huge franchises. And even again, just like even just mainstream media in general. Just I just can't think of any of it coming up.
Lara:The closest I can think of is, like, self sacrifice in a lot of things like Captain America sacrificing himself, crashing that that plane down ship down into the ground. Black Widow in that in that Avenger. In
Link:that Avenger movie?
Josué:Oh. Mhmm.
Link:Yeah. Yeah. I think she made the
Lara:choice that it was her that was gonna die and not Hawkeye. Yeah. Mhmm.
Josué:In the doctor who episode, I think why it can it flies is because it is it is also a self sacrifice. Like, the way they say it is like, the the captain kills herself to prevent x. Mhmm. Like, how does that make it more right? Like, that opens a whole
Lara:other conversation. They're a martyr.
Josué:Well, that opens a whole other conversation. Right? Because it's like, go for it. Like, what what
Lara:do No.
Link:That's I'm agreeing with you. That's there's there's so many layers to this. Just the idea of killing yourself has all of these social factors that go into it where, you know, it's like, if if you have a terminal illness that changes it. If you are sacrificing yourself to save somebody else that changes it. And it changes the way that we think about it, and it changes the way that, movies and TV shows show it.
Link:Something I find really interesting is, in a lot of these, like, superhero movies where they do have that self sacrifice aspect, if you listen to the scoring around that scene and compare it to other movies that are talking about suicide, not in a self sacrifice way, or not in a superhero self sacrifice way, the scoring is different. And it's very interesting to think about like there's so many layers to what goes into how the creators of the media want this idea to be taken in. And just that little shift of like, we we put extra violins in it and people are like, that's self sacrifice. That's beautiful. I applaud them.
Link:I'm all for it. It's like, oh, interesting.
Josué:The the the double standard, I think, is right. Like, okay, something like 13 reasons why she kills herself because she is basically being abused, right, by all these like, her life sucks. She wants she wants out. But some people, when they kill themselves, they think that they are doing a good thing, like, that the people around them will be better off.
Lara:Been better off with that.
Josué:So it is that, like, heroic self sacrifice possibly. So the superhero that sacrifices himself, how is that not more influential than something like 13 Reasons Why?
Link:And what does it say what does it say about our culture that we apply morality to death in that way? Yeah. What does it say about our unconscious belief systems, and what behaviors are appropriate in the society we've created? And how are people punished for stepping outside of that? And the language we use around it and when when are things veiled and when are things straightforward?
Link:When do things have legislation versus we just were not we're we we pretend we simply do not see it. All that stuff is really meaty, delicious, good stuff.
Lara:Look at this hero who sacrificed himself and jumped in front of these kids that were in danger versus, you know, this person who is weak for not being able to put up with the way the world treats them. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Josué:I mean, I don't think we've had one of these conversations in a while, but I I do remember two I don't know. Was it two separate episodes or anyway, the one where we talked about how Spider Man just kicked the shit out of everybody in in the first Sony video game?
Lara:That was an episode. Mhmm.
Josué:Yeah. And then there's also the the the Batman Arkham series conversation too. Right? Where he's like
Lara:I think we I think we had I think it was
Josué:all the same. Right? It's like, you just you're like, oh, you're the hero, and you're just, like, beating the shit out of everybody, like, tossing people off buildings and just, like, it doesn't Oh, right. It's like this this hypocrisy. We're like, oh, but it's okay.
Lara:Because they're superheroes.
Josué:They're a superhero. Right? It's like, oh, you
Link:can wear the fire. Underwear on the outside. And therefore, yeah, you're allowed to do that kind of stuff.
Lara:I just had this conversation with somebody about how dare in Daredevil, he's like, we don't kill people. But then he's, like, bashing people's heads into walls and giving them TBIs and smashing them and like, yeah. Mhmm. That's how you kill people, Matt.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is yeah. It is I wonder if anybody is kind of I mean, I don't know how easy that is to study, but, like, the influence of, like, can superheroes inspire us to do good, right, and be a hero and, like, protect somebody, but also self sacrifice in a way that is again, like, that's just your belief.
Josué:That's just in your head. You think that that's gonna be better. And even if it were true, right, like, it's but it's it's not I don't know. I don't know. The role of media in this Very it's got my my brain jumping.
Link:I consume a lot of media that has suicide in it, often not as the focus because I I I watch a lot of horror. I watch a lot of horror and it is a common theme for ghosts or demons, other spooky scary monsters that that sacrificing yourself to the monster to save your teammates or or what have you. Like, those are all very common threads. A recent one that has it's not even that recent. Oh, god.
Link:I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just got psychic damage from COVID again. Midsommar, which came out in, I think, in 2018. Not that recent, but that has a major plot point is the main character's sister died by suicide slash
Lara:murdered their parents.
Link:Really fucked up movie. I highly recommend it if you enjoy, horror movies. It's it is stuck with me. It's still inside my guts, but it does like, this topic is more easily accessible within, like, horror and, I would say like animation, allows for this topic to come up more often. It's often like less realistic when you're talking about like anime and stuff, or it leans more into like fantastical elements, but it does come up more often, which I appreciate that is part of why I enjoy horror media so much is that death is a main aspect of it.
Link:It is something that we are grappling with the concept of through art. And so I I really like that. I haven't I only ever watched the first episode of Wonder Egg Priority, but that has a fair amount of suicide content and it does not.
Josué:It sure does.
Lara:Yeah. Does. Yep. Yep.
Josué:Absolutely. Yeah. It doesn't shy away from it at all. Every episode has to do with every episode has to do with suicide.
Link:Yeah. I remember, like, episodes of, like, house and, like, medical dramas. We'll we'll touch on it, but they lean more back into the a very special episode thing. Like, they they save the suicidal person is the outcome of whatever the conflict is within the the episode.
Josué:Yeah.
Lara:Yeah. But yeah.
Josué:Why? I mean, if we if we think of horror being as like, okay, that's a place where we can play with those ideas. It almost feels like the opposite is true. Or it's like, in every other genre, we can't unless it's an exception. Right?
Josué:It's like, suicide get that out of the script. We're like, can't do that. I'm simplifying, right, like the the content, like making it very black and white, but it kinda feels that way.
Link:I mean, you know, there's certainly, like, crossover. I'm sure there's, like, Hallmark Channel movies where the inciting event is somebody's funeral or what have you. Right. It's death is a part of life. And
Josué:and There's nothing.
Link:And so I've seen too
Josué:many Hallmark movies. I don't think any of them touch any
Link:They don't. They they there should be more, funeral based Hallmark. Why am I saying that? I don't agree. I'm really excited about the Hanukkah one.
Link:Hopefully, Well, it's got a Groundhog Day thing in it. So maybe there is gonna be some death. Fingers crossed. Yeah, I I do think it's like, you know, there are certain genres that lend themselves more to to engaging with that topic and that is both, like, the medium is the message side of it, but also in your audience, like we've been talking about is like, you're most most people are, generally avoidant of this topic. And so getting the right context in which to get them to engage with it is a thing that you have to plan for.
Link:Horror is is already like we're already covering dark scary stuff. So if you're surprised by death showing up here, if you're surprised by suicide showing up here, that's on you, you should have known. But if you're watching, you know, something else, it's like a sports comedy drama, and it veers into that, you're gonna be like, Woah, what? Yeah. That being said, I've been watching a lot of like old adult swim comedy stuff the past week, and they're sorry.
Link:I'm just realizing. Do I actually want video do I want audio recording of me saying this? There are some really funny suicide jokes in I was watching The Heart She Holler, which is very black comedy stuff, but they have a a bit about a character being like, I have nothing left to live for. I'm gonna kill myself. And he gets a gun, and the the gun is flaccid.
Link:Anyways, it made me laugh really hard, and I've been having a hard time lately. So humor is a great coping mechanism. Fuck. We may have to cut this. I don't know.
Link:We'll see.
Josué:But it goes into what I was thinking of, like, I I get it. Is if you're going to a comedy to laugh, you don't want there's a bunch of stuff that you wouldn't wanna see in there. Suicide is just one on a list of many many things that you don't want when you're
Lara:watching. Many times have they talked about suicide on South Park? Probably a lot.
Josué:South Park talks about everything to be to be fair.
Lara:Okay. Supposedly
Josué:They kill the same character
Link:off for South Park has the the fantasy of death is not a permanent thing.
Lara:Yeah. Supposedly, there is a Hallmark movie from 2007 called Sacrifices of the Heart that involves suicide. All I know is that somebody is trying to heal from her past after the trauma of witnessing her mother's suicide at age seven, and tries to talk it through with one of these characters and her dad.
Josué:I stand corrected. It's still a romance. Right? Like, she she still falls in love.
Link:I mean, if you think The power of love is what saves her.
Josué:Gotcha. Gotcha. Obviously. Yeah. At Christmas.
Link:Obviously. I I recently watched Or a farm. Recently watched 1992 Scent of a Woman starring Al Pacino, which is and Chris O'Donnell, which is a story about Al Pacino's character is like a blind veteran and, he's bailing on his family Thanksgiving because he wants to go and have like his final Thanksgiving and then die. And he drags Chris O'Donnell along with him as his helper because, again, he's blind. And it becomes this whole thing of like Chris, you know, trying to save him.
Link:But honestly, some like really solid stuff in in a film from '92. Like he he I I think that they handled that with a lot more grace than was maybe expected of them in 1992 talking about suicide. But talking about suicide contextualized by military service is another layer that is like that gets treated differently than other.
Lara:Right. Because they're a hero even if it's that they've left the war and come home, like, they're still a hero.
Link:Yeah. And this relationship with with our government system is like they're this is like, maybe you have some responsibility to deal with this, and maybe they don't. I don't know. But just, like, that extra layer there is, you know, we keep talking. It is very complex.
Link:Many, many interconnected systems are impacting this this topic. It is never, ever straightforward.
Josué:That does make me think that the topic of veteran suicide is more common in media. Absolutely.
Link:Mhmm. I think time.
Josué:Yeah. That is, like, one of the versions of it where it's
Link:like One could say
Josué:about it.
Link:As as an outcome of our military systems choosing to invest in research and support to that group specifically, and that echoes out into the broader media pool.
Josué:But I think that the narrative is the lack of funding and resources by the government in that.
Link:In in conversation. Right? It's like media Yeah. The the media stories we get are always in conversation with what is going on in the real world. And so it's like this idea of like we'll keep showing stories about like how tragic it is that we are losing these people who served our country to suicide like we were gonna make these really intense emotional appeals to general audiences to try and get them invested in this, as a way to push actual, like, laws being made and and support resources within our medical systems and social services.
Link:Like, that is an ongoing conversation.
Josué:And I I wonder I wonder how much of it is that and how much of it in some cases, or in which cases, it is also addressed, like, oh, this is a version of suicide that we can talk about because, like, people are familiar with it. You know, like, we're not gonna talk about that six year old who shot themselves, you know, because they were bullied at school, but we can talk about, you know,
Link:Yes. Absolutely.
Josué:Homeless veterans, you know, that are that are that are committing suicide every single day. And and, like, yeah, you can keep that one in the script. Yeah.
Link:I mean, it it has a couple of layers to it where it's like, if you are a veteran, you are an adult. So it's like, that's an easy differentiation. We're we're only talking about adults. It's people opt in to armed services and so there's an aspect of being like, well, yes, terrible things happened to you but you did choose to participate in that. That changes the way that people view, you know, suicide attempts, death, all of that is is contextualized by this.
Link:And the, you know, people who are in service versus have been in service but are not currently versus never participated in any way, they are all gonna have very different beliefs and and ideas about what that is like and how common suicide is from there. And all of those things are all and that's all often informed by our media. So it's like
Josué:Yeah.
Link:Back and forth, back and forth.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. So, again, this is just my impression. I I don't I don't know. But it it feels like it's almost a stereotype.
Link:Yeah.
Josué:Right? It's like, oh, if we have a character that's a veteran, we can make them either homeless or or, you know, suicidal.
Lara:Or yeah. Mhmm.
Josué:Right? And then and, like, that can add some drama to the story. Mhmm. Right? Like, that's just part of the stereotype.
Josué:But that does come from, like, actual reporting and and statistics and and pushes for that. So so going back to that question of, like, what do you say to the kid who asked that question? Like, do you do you have any examples of again, like, did those conversation were you ever a part of those conversations, or do you have any thoughts on on how I wanna say advice, but just thoughts on how to suggest that somebody handle or somebody can handle that or what kind of support there is available?
Lara:It never came up when I was working with kids, like kids, kids.
Josué:And
Lara:I don't work with kids, kids now, so I don't have to have that conversation.
Josué:Be any age.
Lara:Yeah. Teenagers are more willing to talk about it, honestly, and bring it up with me on the regular, whether it is themselves or their friends and have they worry about them.
Josué:I wanna I wanna comment on something there. Like, hold your thought for a second because I was talking to a therapist in the community one time, and she was asking me like, she was very concerned about a client, perhaps multiple, but remember her mentioning that our clients were making jokes about suicide. And I was trying to explain to her, like, if you were on social media, you would you would see that, like, there is a much more there's more casual conversation
Lara:Mhmm.
Josué:And and and joking about stopping something or ending something and using it's like the taboo is gone for a particular generation, right, moving forward where I was like
Lara:the word unalive on social media over and over.
Josué:And I mean and and so the reason, right, the the reason you use unalive and other terms is, like, for the algorithm supposedly. Right? It's like so so that it doesn't you don't get flagged, which I don't know how how how true that is. Like, oh, we're we're only gonna flag suicide, but we're not gonna flag all the other terms that everybody
Lara:I think
Josué:obviously uses for
Link:them. Think unalive specifically, it as far as the using that, it's not it it transformed into including suicide. I think when it started, it was a way to talk about deaths caused by police. And and it was a way to say murder Now there's a killing without getting flagged as, you know, in in 2020, talking about police brutality, was getting silenced a lot. And so that was a workaround for that.
Link:That sort of echoed out from there and sort of became a broader thing and and did become a joke in a way, which that's a whole another podcast episode right there to talk about, like, why why people would do that and what benefit it brings to do that kind of thing and why it's so popular right now. But, yeah.
Josué:Like, like, like, the me on social media of like, you know, I went to bed. I don't know. Like, I woke up in the morning and I was very disappointed. Right? Like, shit.
Josué:Like, I woke up again because I have to keep doing this over and over again. Like, just the the casualness is is so different from maybe mainstream media. Right? Like like like Yeah. Fiction and things like that.
Lara:Think someone coming to me, like, I'm constantly doing assessment. Right? And I'm I there are some clients I'm very worried about. And there's other clients that I'm not so worried about that make jokes about, I just today, I wish I wasn't alive. For legal purposes, that was a joke.
Lara:And I'm like, yes. I will laugh at the joke. Like, I get it. Life is hard. Like, there are days where sometimes we don't wanna get up in the morning.
Lara:Totally valid.
Josué:And for legal reasons, I have to ask you these three follow-up questions.
Lara:And, like, I do the, like, okay, really a joke? Are we serious? And I know I can tell. I get a feel with my clients. This is after usually, they don't make those jokes with me until we've had a rapport and get the feel for, okay, are they actually joking or is there something seriously going on underneath that I need to address?
Lara:But I sometimes even the ones that I am worried about make jokes like that. And it's like, okay, let's see what's really going on. And sometimes it really is just a joke because sometimes you get tired of it and you just wanna joke about it. Yeah.
Josué:That's why I I think, again, advice is a is a strong word. Mhmm. But, like, don't avoid the conversations. Right? Because I think that was the problem.
Josué:And that's the feedback that I gave to that clinician. I was like, look, it's not uncommon to to for
Lara:for younger people. Coming from 40 year olds to joke about it.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, don't don't just freak out. Until that happens.
Josué:Right? Like, have the have the conversation that I I would recommend that to anybody. Again, the suicide contagion stuff is so is so strange. Right? And I I, as far as I can tell, there's there's conflicting research on that, and it's all it seems correlational.
Josué:Right? It's not it's not causal. So it's it's hard to think that right. Like, some people will be afraid to bring it up because they think, like, if the person didn't have the idea and I bring it up, then I'm putting that idea in their head. But then right?
Josué:It's like those types of fears are in people's minds when if we if we just more freely talked about it seriously, people wouldn't be freaking out when it comes up.
Lara:Most suicide prevention trainings I have gone to because that's one of the ones in California that we have to have, like, every other year or so, or it comes up as a like, everyone needs to have a training on this, is be kind but blunt. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Don't avoid it.
Lara:Have the conversation. Ask the question. You're probably not going to put something in their head that wasn't already there.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lara:And if you avoid it, you make it especially as a clinician, you make it so that they don't feel comfortable talking to you about it. And that is the worst possible thing.
Josué:Yep. Because you should be
Lara:the one person that they should be able to talk to about it.
Josué:Yep. And of course, that applies to to family and parents in particular.
Lara:But but but Yeah. Especially
Josué:I agree. No.
Lara:I agree. I agree with It's like, if you don't if someone doesn't feel comfortable talking to family or friends Yeah. You should be the one that they can talk to about anything.
Josué:Yeah.
Lara:But same goes for family and friends. If you're concerned, ask about it.
Josué:Allah, any final thoughts additional to what you just shared?
Lara:Those are my final thoughts. Ask about it.
Josué:Gotcha. Link?
Link:I think this was a really good conversation. Thanks, Final Fantasy six. Putting in the word.
Josué:Final Fantasy six.
Lara:Thirty years later.
Josué:Allegedly, by by many accounts, the best Final Fantasy ever. It's got it all.
Lara:Make an argument that seven is, but
Josué:People make the argument. I mean, it's always six or seven. But
Lara:Listen. I still say that the best Square and Knicks game or Squaresoft back in the day, Chrono Trigger.
Josué:Yeah. No one's talking about Chrono Trigger. Does Chrono trigger have suicides?
Lara:Just gonna ask. Actually, I maybe some self sacrifice. I would have to do some research, but it's been a long time since I played that one all the way through.
Josué:Oh, thank you for engaging in in this conversation. I again, I cannot remember any other, like, shocking examples in in media or just, again, surprising or that just handled it well. I can remember. So listeners, please help us out with that. And let us know what you think about this conversation and and kind of where we went with it.
Josué:You can do that in any of our community spaces, which there are links for in the show notes. More Geek Therapy visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good. And we'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
