Pokémon Sleep
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josue Cardona, and I'm joined by Marquis.
Marc Cuiriz:Hello.
Josué Cardona:you fell asleep. You asleep?
Marc Cuiriz:No. You caught me off guard there.
Josué Cardona:Okay. And and Link Keller.
Link Keller:What's up?
Josué Cardona:Alright, team. This week, I did an interview for for, a website. They want to interview me about video games and therapy, stuff like that. And we got to the conversation of games that are deliberately made for behavioral interventions and and therapy. And we spoke about, like, there's one game that is FDA approved for ADHD. And other than that, l like, that's actually part of a digital health category under the FDA here in the United States. So digital health is something that's growing. And so there can be apps and software to treat symptoms. And so there is one for ADHD. It's called Endeavor. I've never played it because you need a prescription for it.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:It's, it's very interesting, and, I haven't checked if my insurance covers it.
Link Keller:Do you think that's, that's something you can get on the Pirate Bay?
Josué Cardona:Look. I don't I have there's there's so much to, to to go into, in terms of the the business of health care in the US and how you like, how do you make a a prescription game, and how do you monetize it? I I don't I don't I don't understand. I don't understand it completely. But, the reporter asked me, you know, like, could we see video games for other things? And I told her that based on conversations that I have had with different developers and designers, there is a I seem to have found a consensus that it's really hard to make a game that has a purpose and is also fun. It is, like, effective at what it does and is also fun. I I agree that it's pretty hard. I don't think people should stop trying, and I used to be I used to have much more faith in the idea that it was possible. I thought I could even be part of it, but now I I don't I'm not so sure. But along along those lines, not so much in the therapy space, but in behavior modification, there there have been a few games and apps that I've that I've tried. And, Link, you brought up the idea of of, starting this conversation off with one particular app slash game, slash I don't know what you wanna call it, that you've been experimenting with lately. Yeah. Please tell us more.
Link Keller:I have been playing Pokemon Sleep for
Josué Cardona:How do you play Pokemon Sleep? What does that mean?
Link Keller:Oh, boy.
Josué Cardona:Now for how long have you been doing it?
Link Keller:About 2 months. Okay. I have been using this app. It does have some gamified elements to it, but mostly, it is a sleep tracking app where you turn it on on your phone before you go to sleep, and you put your phone on your bed next to you, and it measures your sleep throughout the night. In theory, it is tracking as you move through sleep cycles and when you wake up and, how long you are asleep for, and it gives you scores based on that.
Josué Cardona:Okay.
Link Keller:Yeah. I have used a sleep tracking app before that was not gamified. It was just for tracking sleep, and that one definitely seemed more accurate in what it was measuring. Of course, that is based on vibes because I don't have the actual equipment required to prove any of this is accurate or not. But the added Pokemon theme to it is very enjoyable because I am a child of the nineties, and Pokemon has been in every part of my life since I was wee. Not the wii, but, anyway, it's a bad anyways, the Pokemon aspect is very cute. It is set up where you are a, Pokemon sleep researcher, and you team up with a Snorlax. And you feed the Snorlax berries and little dinners, salads, curries, and desserts. And, when you go to sleep at night, other Pokemon in the world come and curl up and take a little nap next to the Snorlax. And when you wake up in the morning, you get to take pictures of them. They have different sleeping styles. There's lots of different Pokemon, of course. And so there's that collecting aspect to it. And then there's the number go up aspect to it where you are feeding your Snorlax, and it gets bigger, which is visually very cute. But, yeah, mostly, it's now a thing that I do on my phone before going to sleep instead of TikTok. Not always instead of. Sometimes it's just after. But, yeah.
Josué Cardona:Okay. So I have a question. Why why do you wanna track your sleep?
Link Keller:Oh, I was mostly interested in it so that we could talk about it here, and I just have played lots of Pokemon games. So there's, like, the curiosity is still like, okay. What what the what the heck is Pokemon sleep? Like, I wanna see that. So there's the curiosity element. I'm just engaging with them on that front. I'm
Josué Cardona:But you've done it in the past too. Right? Like, you you said you've used sleep tracking app?
Link Keller:Yes. I I had, pretty bad in insomnia as a teen and early twenties. And, while my sleep habits have gotten a lot better, they don't fit into what's, normal, typical sleep expectations are. And so, you know, in that way of, like, there's something wrong with my life, so I should do something to change what I'm doing so that maybe my life will get better. And so one of those things is, you know, many years ago at this point is, like, tracking what food I was eating and tracking my sleep as a way to try and understand myself better. This is something I am going to talk about more as we delve into this whole conversation, but I have found it does not help me. I understand logically how beneficial it can be as a tool, and I think it would help a lot of people. But I think for me, specifically, having access to that data actually makes me less comfortable and happy.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah. So so that's interesting. So a lot of people advocate for measuring behavior that you want to change.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Because how would how do you really know if it's changing or not if you're not measuring?
Link Keller:Exactly. So that's where I'm calling. When I first went on, like, doing sleep tracking and and food tracking and stuff, it was when I was in my bachelor's program doing, like, bio psych and talking about this stuff. So there was, like, that extra layer there too where it's like, I'm learning about it. I should do it.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so things like, like, tracking your weight every day, tracking your steps, tracking your sleep, those are things that are that are very popular and very easy to do with all kinds of different devices. And then, to your point, right, like that, does it actually help with the behavior change? I think that if you want to, it is it can assist you, but some of them do stress people out. Like, if you I don't know. How do you sleep 9 hours a night if you don't if you just can't? You know? Like, you've got, like, an unrealistic goal. Or if you are, I think the weight one is one that can that affects a lot of people because your weight fluctuates from day to day, and you might weigh yourself one day. You may be on a diet and exercising, and one day you weigh 2 pounds more than you did the day before. That can be very discouraging and, you know, not not helpful. And then also, if you are using the the scale example, again, you might be dieting and and exercising, and it doesn't move for days. That can be even worse. So, like, you're trying everything to go to to for your sleep, and then it's not working correctly. Also with sleep, sleep is weird. I've used multiple different trackers. Now I use one every night and, like, I don't know. I know when I wake up in the middle, and I I know how accurate, like or not accurate it can be at times, and it can be a little frustrating. And it does have this weird effect of where I'm trying to get 7 hours, because I know that if I get 7 hours, I'm my mind is clear the next day. I feel better. And then if I see that I didn't get the 7 hours, like, I start thinking, oh, this day is gonna suck. And that may not necessarily be the case. Even if it's a 100% accurate, that may not be the case. So there's a there's a lot of stuff that that, comes up with, with these. And it's hard as well to to use these apps just like regular if you have to check-in, like the ones where you have to track your food, like, those can be really complicated because you have to either search for something. Some you can, like, scan a bar code, but if everything you're eating has a bar code, how good is your diet? There's yeah. Like, they're hard.
Josué Cardona:Even even, like, if we're talking to mental health, like, even mood trackers, like, you still have to like, I have my watch remind me to do it, and I still won't do it. And there's, like, there's, like, the the barrier to, like, the friction, can can be can be quite an obstacle.
Link Keller:And it's sort of, like, double layered in that whatever the tool is, it is more useful the more you use it. And so any sort of lapse in your pattern is like, okay. Well, now all of this is useless. It's like, it's not entirely true. That's not true, but, like, it feels that way sometimes.
Josué Cardona:It's it's complicated, especially yeah. For for a number of reasons. I I know that, from for me and for many people, when Pokemon go came out, like, people were putting in more steps. Like, people were walking around and doing stuff. And I know that that was kind of the intention, right, was to was one of the goals of the app was to get people to move around more.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Ultimately, it was to catch Pokemon and and and buy premium, tokens and and things like that. But the mechanism was, like, oh, people have to move around. People have to to move to get it. And so that was, like, a phenomenon. Right?
Josué Cardona:Like, the power of Pokemon to get people to to walk. And I remember before that, many years ago, I don't remember which version of Pokemon it was, but I think it was on on Game Boy Advance that they that came with a Pokewalker.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Remember this? And it was like and you and it was a pedometer, and then you have to walk a certain amount, and then you would get these these
Link Keller:I think that came out when, not pearl and diamond, the one after that. Black and white? X and y?
Josué Cardona:Before that. No. No. Those are those are the s games.
Link Keller:The original pokeWalker?
Josué Cardona:Yeah. The original Pokewalker. Let's look it up.
Marc Cuiriz:I I thought that was Diamond and Pearl
Josué Cardona:I thought
Marc Cuiriz:that was Diamond and Pearl.
Josué Cardona:Let's see. The original Pokewalker. So someone look it up while while I keep, explaining that the the way that it worked was you would walk and then you would get these, you would get, like, gifts gifts, and then you would, sync it up with the with the with the game and the console, and it would transfer the gifts over. So it was encouraging you to put in more steps or tie it to your pet or whatever you were trying to do.
Marc Cuiriz:It was heart gold and soul silver. That's what it came out with.
Josué Cardona:The original one?
Marc Cuiriz:It the original Pokewalker came out in on September 12, 2009. It was bundled with the release of Heartgold and SoulSilver. So the remakes of Gold and Silver.
Josué Cardona:And what consoles were those on? On DS?
Marc Cuiriz:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Oh, that's so weird. I remember it way before I guess DS. Yeah. I guess so. I guess so.
Marc Cuiriz:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:That was still, like, 14 years ago. So I remember I had that. And for a little bit, I was like, oh, I'm gonna put some extra steps in. But it wasn't it wasn't like it wasn't super motivating. And the gifts that you got weren't great. You got, like, berries and stuff for inside the game. But Pokemon and Nintendo have been trying to do this for a while. There have been different Pokewalkers, and now you can actually buy a sleep like, a Pokemon plus plus, I think it's called. Right? Like, a Poke Ball plus plus or something. And that's the one that does the the sleep tracking, But you don't need it for the app. But so so now they're they and, I mean, they announced this a long time ago. Right? Pokemon sleep. So tryna make it so that everything that you were talking about before, Link, right, all the things that you anything that you gain, you would gain not through playing the game during the day, but you get it by sleeping.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Correct? So walk me through that. So you sleep, and if you sleep depending on how long you sleep, you get what?
Link Keller:So you have, a team of Pokemon that you have befriended, and they collect, berries and ingredients for cooking throughout the day and night. But it uses up their like, they have energy bars. And so throughout the day, when they're collecting stuff, that's using up their energy bars. So when you go to bed at night, they're at, like, you know, 5 - 0 points of energy. And so when you sleep, you are regaining your energy points. They are also regaining their energy points. And if you get higher sleep point scores, they get more returns on that.
Josué Cardona:Okay.
Link Keller:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:Okay. And does it matter what, like, if you're in a deep sleep or in light sleep, or anything like that?
Link Keller:It does have it split into snoozing, slumbering, and what's the third one?
Marc Cuiriz:Dozing.
Link Keller:Dozing, I guess. I don't know what order that's supposed to be in. Okay. They have it split into those three levels of, like, deep sleep, and then sort of the intermediate sleep when you're doing, like, dreaming and stuff, and then the sort of, like, just barely asleep level. And different Pokemon are assigned to each of those categories. So if you get a high dozing score for that night sleep, more dozing type Pokemon will show up if you get a balanced amount of sleep. And I'm still unclear if the balanced amount of sleep is based off of some hidden number that they have, or if it is balanced based on the information they have gathered about my sleep. Because each morning, it tells you your sleeping type, and it says, like, oh, you dozed 20 minutes longer than usual. So, unclear about that. Lots of hidden hidden number stuff there. But, yeah, basically, different types of Pokemon show up depending on what types of sleep it has tracked you as having.
Josué Cardona:Okay.
Link Keller:Again, I don't I don't I don't think it's very accurate.
Josué Cardona:Tracking is hard confusing content.
Link Keller:It is.
Josué Cardona:So tracking is really hard because it's going off of I mean and this is the kind of tracker that is just laying on your bed.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Correct?
Link Keller:Yes. And so if you if you sleep with a partner, that means it's gonna be less accurate. If you sleep with pets, that means it's gonna be less accurate. If you sleep on a certain types of mattresses that are Yeah. Really squishy or not squishy at all or water beds. All of those things would affect how accurate the, measurement is because it's just using your phone's internal gyroscopes and the, audio recorder.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. And, and so you you have a choice to turn on the microphone Mhmm. At night. It says to keep it plugged in or have the microphone. And that one's interesting because I I've used apps that will, like, actually record your snoring. And it, like, it knows what a snore sounds like, and so it'll it'll mark them and then record them so you can hear back. And then, again, I use that to to reduce my snoring.
Marc Cuiriz:I definitely wouldn't want that because that would that would mean I'd have to admit that I actually snore at night, and I'm comfortable living in that denial even though there have been multiple times when I've woken up to the sound of my own snoring. Yeah. I will continue to deny it.
Josué Cardona:I recommend you
Link Keller:That wasn't me. That was Snorlax. I don't know what to tell you guys.
Marc Cuiriz:Yeah. Exactly.
Josué Cardona:The microphone is also, strange. So, yeah, so on the accuracy piece, a lot of these apps, I mean, it's too hard. The the one that I use, uses my Apple Watch. So it's measuring my heart rate variability and movement, and it's pretty good. But if I'm very, very still and relaxed, it'll think that I'm sleeping, right, and when I when I'm not. But at night, it's it's pretty good. It's pretty good, and I kind of just take I just believe it if it says I was in deep sleep, because it has a little more biometric data, than other apps that I've used. So but but it has helped me create better habits in the sense that, like, I do kinda see when I'm falling asleep and when I wake up if I'm waking up in the middle of the night. If it was a restless night, like, it it can see. And so I've tried different things.
Josué Cardona:Do I make the room cooler? Do I change the sheets? Do I, like, use a different pillow to see, you know, if it makes a difference? And it has been helpful. But one thing that that app does doesn't do that the Pokemon app does, which I think is cool, is, like, it gives you a reason to go to the app during the day, first of all.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:So it's kind of making, like, just bringing attention to sleep. And then I see that it has all sorts of tips that come up every now and then, and that's cool. So has, how do you feel about that stuff?
Link Keller:I think that's maybe, like, the biggest benefit for me so far is that those sleep tips are, very cool. That it pops up whenever you're doing things and it's loading. It gives you a little sleep tip, that you can refer to from the notes page. It talks about stuff like temperature being really important and, you know, eating close to bedtime as not being a great idea. But the one the one that actually stuck out to me that has made me feel slightly better is that, it talks about how, like, the right amount of sleep is the amount of sleep that makes you feel good. There's not a a magic number that you need to be attaining. It's it's your body, and you need to find what works for you. And that, people who are night owls can't really do anything about it. You can't will yourself into being a morning person, and that has, relieved a lot of stress for me because as you guys can bear witness to the screenshots I sent you of my Pokemon sleep game, I go to sleep late, and I wake up late in the morning. And I often feel bad about that. But, I'm
Josué Cardona:Why?
Link Keller:[stumbles over words] I'm not a good worker bee the capitalist society, which frankly, I don't wanna be. So I don't know why it has that negative emotional impact on me, but there is something there. At some point in my life, I, was made to feel bad about the way that my body treats sleeping, and, it's taken some work to unravel that.
Marc Cuiriz:I think this is just another one of your ways of fighting the capitalistic institution. Or just like, you know what? Forget it. Because honestly, if you also look at your screenshots, you've got some great sleep consistency.
Link Keller:I do have great sleep consistency. That is something that I'm actually pretty proud of because, like I said before, I used to have real bad sleep. So I am getting lots of sleep now, and that is good. But, yeah, definitely trying to come around and, like, internalize that it is not a moral failing of mine that I can't go to bed at 10 PM and wake up at 6 AM fresh ready to go, do my day, eat breakfast immediately, start work, be present. It's like, no. I my brain doesn't turn on till 9:30, and it's got a long boot up.
Marc Cuiriz:I think what you were saying about, like, that how that sleep tip of, like, the match like, the amount of sleep is however much you need to to feel rested and good. I think that's actually a pretty important tip there because, you know, as you were as, Josué, you were kinda talking earlier about, like, you know, with sleep tracking and all that and how they're you know, if you have a lapse or if, you know, it kind of is inaccurate and things like that, you know, and you're not getting the best readings. But also, each and every individual person is different. Like, there are days when some people might need more sleep, and then there are other days when when people can operate on a little bit less than, like, 8, 7 hours. Like, you know, me, for example, there are times when I could sleep for 4 hours, wake up, and I'm I'm ready to go. Like, I am wide awake, ready to just get the day going. there are other days when I could sleep for 12 hours and still wake up and be like, I'm ready to go back to bed. Like, it
Link Keller:That is one of the things that they talk about. I have it they have the sleep tips is taught it talks about sleep debts. The idea of being, like, you can you can shorten the amount of time that you need to sleep, but it it creates a debt, and it will be repaid. And so that's the, the oh, yeah. Based on, like, like, the way that sleep cycles work is, like, if you get up and move your body at a certain point, like, chemically, your body is, like, we're we're ready. Let's do it. But after a while, that will catch up, and you need to to get the 12 hours of sleep and then the 2 and a half hour nap the next day also.
Marc Cuiriz:Wow. That completely goes against this idea that one can never, quote, unquote, catch up on sleep.
Josué Cardona:Well, I mean so so I have an app that does the same thing, but after a while, it resets that. Like, because you can't always catch like, if if you could literally catch up, like, sometimes we'd sleep for 2 or 3 days in a row. Right? So at one at some point, like, it does cost you. There was there was one tip I got that said, like, if you a late night cram session, may not help you in the end because if you don't sleep well, like, your your brain's not working as clearly. Like, your judgment may be may be,
Link Keller:It doesn't,
Josué Cardona:impact it. Like, you're not gonna make good decisions the next day.
Link Keller:Your memory is worse. Recall, all that stuff, becomes less effective.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah. Sleep is super important. I mean, I used to be, you know, I used to be the person that's like, oh, I'll sleep when I'm dead. I I don't care. Like, it's a waste of time. I also used to used to sleep late, and I don't sleep in late anymore. Lately, I've been going to bed. Yeah. Lately, I've been going to bed, like, at 9, which is which is
Marc Cuiriz:40, Josue.
Josué Cardona:I know. It's because I'm old. It's because I'm old. But I had to train myself slowly to to do that. Like, a couple years ago, it was like, I can't do a meeting at 9 AM. There's no way. And then it was, like, oh, no. I have meetings at 8 AM. So I just you just if your schedule allows it, right, you can your your your sleep adjust I mean, if you if you're working a late shift, right, there's people who sleep during the day. I mean, as much as people talk about circadian rhythm, sometimes you just have to adjust to to your your life and and work Yeah. They don't go into it too much, which fair enough. I am pretty sure the research on circadian rhythms is all very new beginning question stuff. But, they do talk about that in one of the sleep things where it's like the human circadian rhythm does not line up with 24 hours a day. And so Yeah. Eating when you first wake up is a way to get your body to connect to the 24 hour cycle, which I thought was really interesting. It it I eat breakfast every day, but often several hours from when I have woken up, which might might help me feel better if I actually ate, but it I I feel very nauseous all the time. So
Marc Cuiriz:I I will say, Josué, you were talking about how you had to train yourself to kind of adjust to, like, your your sleep to that sort of cycle of, like, now you have meetings at 8 o'clock. Yeah. And that idea of eating breakfast as soon as you wake up, I never realized how important that was until this year, because I was the same way where getting up at 8 o'clock in the morning to do something, absolutely not. Like, that no. That that was not a me thing. High school sucked. College sucked. Because I was also a a a night owl. I stayed up late, and I wanted to sleep in late. But over time, I had to adjust and and train my body to now I'm going to bed typically at 9, 9:30, 10 o'clock, and I'm waking up at 5, 6 o'clock in the morning to go to work. But with that, like, this year, I decide I we start I started this trend of of having at least something small relatively shortly after I wake up. And I cannot tell you how much of a difference that's made because if I go to work and I don't have anything to eat, boy, howdy do I feel it.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Marc Cuiriz:My my like, everything is completely thrown off. And then that usually leads into later in the day, I I noticed that, like, if I do that, like, for a few days, then my sleep gets messed up. Because then I kinda go back to the old ways of, like, now I'm staying up later because the the rhythm got got all messed up. My groove got thrown off.
Josué Cardona:Yeah.
Link Keller:This is where the tracking is, like, really beneficial to pick up on when those patterns are happening. If you don't tend to have, like, a lot of self awareness in those aspects, having an app to help you track that is is useful for being able to notice those kinds of patterns happening.
Josué Cardona:Yep. Yep. Yeah. That's a that's a I I, you know, I like to believe that there's an app for everything. And then, you know, if we really needed help, there could be there could be some app that would help with with the the behavior modification part of it. Is there we'll we'll keep going back and forth with the Pokemon sleep. But is there any habit that you any other habits that you've tried to use an app with, to to help you kinda either track or just do?
Marc Cuiriz:I used this app. Me and my wife were using it because we were trying to eat better, monitor our intake. Me more so, I needed to increase my intake because this is back when I just kept forgetting to consume literally anything. But I I found that when it especially when it comes to things that monitor food, that requires a great amount of discipline and to a certain extent, knowledge of how much calories or how much of what certain food like, certain food groups are, especially like fruits and vegetables because you can look you can use the search bar and try to look something up, and it'll give you a few sub like, different options of the same thing, but, like, different variations. And if you don't know what variation you have, then, like, you just click something and, you know, then the whole thing gets thrown off Cause you're not, you know, you're not sure how accurate it is. And so for me, it just, it wasn't for me because it required a lot of discipline and I'm forgetful enough as it is. So for me to remember after every single time I'm eating to to log it and to document it, it it just it did not it it was not working for me. But recently, I've been using this app as, like, a planner. And, Josue, I think you were the one that turned me to this app.
Josué Cardona:Mhmm.
Marc Cuiriz:I don't even remember what it's called. But, hold on. I have to find it because I don't where is it?
Josué Cardona:What is it for? For calendly?
Marc Cuiriz:It's a planner. It's like a planner.
Josué Cardona:A planner?
Marc Cuiriz:So, like, this so, like, I mean, I know that the the viewers can't see this, but, like, I have it. So, like, it plans out my day. So, like, I remember, like, hey, like, we're we're supposed to be recording, so I need to make sure that, like, I'm actively there. Or, like, if I have, like, important things that I need to remember, that helps me, like, better manage my time because I have very, very poor time management skills and I will often overbook myself or overwork myself. So this helps me, like, space it out. And that's caused me to be a lot more disciplined with, like, when it comes to, like, scheduling stuff, especially, like, with my internship and and seeing clients, like, I can better manage my time. I've I've used it to better organize my my tasks throughout the day. And since I started using it, this didn't require so much of a a discipline thing, more so just to remember to actually put it in there. But once it's in there, I made a, like, a widget on my home screen. So it's big enough that, like, I always see it, And I have alert set or it has alerts auto set, so it'll let me know, like, hey. Don't forget. You got this thing. And I'm like, oh, thanks.
Josué Cardona:Got it. So so the notifications help. The nudges.
Marc Cuiriz:Yeah. So that, like, typically will remind me, like, hey. Like, 5 minutes before, hey. Don't forget you got this person that you're seeing or, hey. Don't forget you have work in an hour.
Marc Cuiriz:You know, things like that.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah. Sure I recommended this app to you? You sure it was me?
Marc Cuiriz:Yes.
Josué Cardona:Because you actually recommend one to me.
Marc Cuiriz:I you're the one that told me about this because I asked you about, like, planner apps, and you're like, oh, yeah. Here's this one. Structured.
Josué Cardona:I don't recall, but I'm I'm glad it's helping.
Marc Cuiriz:Well, it also became a lot more helpful when I bought the, like, it has, like, a a monthly subscription thing, or you could just choose to buy, like, the upgrade, like, for a flat out price of, like, $35.
Josué Cardona:Uh-huh.
Marc Cuiriz:And so I just bought the upgrade a while ago because how because with the upgrade, that allowed you to set things weekly, you know, recurring events, things like that. So, like, it it became a lot more easy and accessible to me once I actually have the upgrade. So
Josué Cardona:Cool.
Marc Cuiriz:You got me there, developers, but I can't lie. It's been it's been very, very helpful for me.
Josué Cardona:Cool. Cool. Would would anything help, like, in terms of gamifying it?
Marc Cuiriz:Well, I think when it comes to time management, I don't think so. I think this is just where I just need, I mean, unless it was, like, I had, like, a, like, the little fairy in Zelda where it goes, like, hey. Listen. Just over and over again, just in my ear. If I had something like that gamified, then cool. Great. Then I could just like, okay. But other than that, I could think at least when it comes to the time management piece, that part is, you know, relatively easy. I think with what I was saying earlier with, like, monitoring food intake, I feel like there's a way that could be gamified. Don't ask me how because I have no idea. But I feel like if that were to be gamified and they were finding if they found a way to make it, like, where it would keep my attention enough, I think that would also work.
Josué Cardona:Well, one thing that these apps I mean, I don't know so much about the time management one. Maybe there are skills that you can that you can gain, and then, you know, you don't need the app to to do them. But it sounds like you're relying on the app a lot.
Marc Cuiriz:At least when it comes to remembering things, yes.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah. Something like the calorie tracking. It happened to me, and and I've heard of other people who feel you know, same thing happened to them. Like, you start using the the the calorie tracking app, and you learn. Like, oh, this is, like you know, you start off by, like, you're weighing the ingredients, and you're and you're putting them in to try to be as precise as possible. And then you kind of have an idea of what it is. So you're like, oh, I don't need to weigh, you know, this every single time. Like, I kinda have an idea, and you just kinda build that skill up. And and, it can be helpful in that way. So I feel like like, Pokemon sleep can kind of do that as well in the sense that, like I mean, yes. It has a game, and you're and you're gaining all these things, but I think you're still learning from it, and you can build a new habit so that if you don't have the game or, like, if you forgot to use it one night, you're still you anything that you've learned, you can still put it into into effect. Do you think that's accurate?
Link Keller:Yeah. Yeah. I think in the case of Pokemon Sleep, the gamifying is just a way to make it engaging enough that you return to it. Right?
Josué Cardona:Mhmm.
Link Keller:You can set, like, a time that you you wanna go to bed by, and it will send you a little notification that's like, Snorlax is ready for you to come to bed. And I was like, that's cute. I like that. But I think mostly is, like, it's the knowledge you gain and the ability to be able to say, like, I slept really well every day this week, and things were going really well at work. And I felt this way, and I got this much stuff done. And then this other week, I slept poorly a couple of days in a row, or I went somewhere else, and was sleeping in a different location, and I could see how that changed the way that my sleep numbers came out. That information is valuable, but isn't like it doesn't really create the longevity that collect more Pokemon does. Yeah. Yeah. And, of course, you know, it's trying to make money because that's what apps are for. So there are, it's not very pushy about buying stuff, but they do have a thing where it's like you can become an upgraded member, or you can spend money to buy, like, the the biscuits that you feed the Pokemon to make them your friends. You can buy some of the consumable items like that and spend extra money. So that's, like, the game side of it is very much like this is a mobile game trying to get you to maybe maybe spend a little extra money, spend a little extra time in the game, check-in every day. So it's like those, I mean, it makes sense why those things go together with a sleep app or food app where it's like, this is something you are doing daily. Like, it it melds well with a an app that is like the intention is to get the user to regularly engage with it.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. So the the app is sleep to win, but it's also it can be paid to win. You can still pay and not sleep.
Link Keller:It's so funny. They have an item that makes it so your Pokemon gain extra. Like, they recover more during
Josué Cardona:Mhmm.
Link Keller:Sleep. And I was like, I had several of them in my bag. I was like, I I'm never gonna why would I use these? They get the same they get the same number I do. And then I was like, oh, because not everybody is getting 8 and a half, 9 hours of sleep every night and hitting that 100. So they're trying to
Josué Cardona:Exactly.
Link Keller:Recover their their poor tired Pokemon.
Josué Cardona:The first night I used it, I I didn't I didn't put it on as soon as I went to bed. I woke up in the middle of the night then put it on. So then I I ended up with 2 and a half hours of sleep tracked.
Link Keller:Yeah. One one night, the it disconnected in the night, and so I woke up and it was like, it disconnected. We're gonna try and recover your sleep data. I was like, okay. I was like, you slept 2 hours. I was like, you fucking liars. How dare you? You give me my points. You give me my cookies. And it is like the the page where it shows, like, the weekly sleeves. So it's, like, the one really short one. I was like, it's not real. I did good. Please. Now I need my validation from the stupid sleep app to tell me that I slept enough.
Josué Cardona:The app does I mean, it allows manual entry also. So if you're tracking elsewhere, you can you can decide that.
Link Keller:Well, that's good to know. Now.
Marc Cuiriz:It's like, great. Now I gotta go back
Link Keller:to, like, to change it. 6 weeks ago, fix it. No. Yeah.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Because last night, I I forgot to do it, and I was like, oh, yeah. I can just add add add my time.
Marc Cuiriz:Yeah. I feel like if I try to use it, it would it's gonna catch her more so, my wife wrestling in her sleep. And it's gonna be like, you slept poorly. Like, do you need help sleeping at night? And I'll be like, yeah. I I mean, maybe. But, no, I swear, it's it's not me. It it's it's her or it's it's the cats because they like to be rambunctious in the middle of the night and run around everywhere and knock things over.
Josué Cardona:Well, at least it doesn't, like like, there isn't a paywall for the the tips and things like that.
Marc Cuiriz:You want actual helpful tips? You need to pay us 14.99.
Josué Cardona:Yep. The pass. There is a sleep pass. Right? Is that a paid thing?
Link Keller:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:There's a premium pass.
Link Keller:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:Of course, there is.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Marc Cuiriz:You want those rare Pokemon? Buy buy the sleep pass.
Josué Cardona:I guess. I don't know how it works.
Link Keller:It just gives you more consumable items.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah.
Link Keller:So you can level up faster, basically.
Josué Cardona:So I once I once did an app that was for tracking how much water you drink in a day. And the the way that it worked was that it had a, it was like a plant that you were growing. So the more water you drank, the more water you logged, the more water you were adding to the plant, and then the plant would grow larger. And then you could grow different types of plants and, like, it was it was all about gardening. And it was kinda cool, especially if you like gardening. But it was it was it was time one activity with another, which I think is is a good way to, like, start building a habit. But I didn't really care that much about the plant. It was that was very much about, like, oh, how how big can I make it grow? And then I guess unlocking different kinds of plants. But Pokemon is hitting, like, you know, that nineties kid that you that you were mentioning. Like, not only is it touching the nostalgia, but, like, to have cute characters, you know
Link Keller:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:And having to be a part of it, like, that's huge.
Link Keller:Like, obviously, everybody listens to this podcast is familiar with how cute Pokemon are, but seeing them in their little sleeping poses? Oh my god. Oh my god. I got one of the first Pokemon I got was a ditto, and it turn it turns into a rock. Like, it sleeps like a rock. It's so cute.
Josué Cardona:Oh, that's great. Yeah. The art style is great. Right? Like, it's got it's got all of the elements that you would want to to make something to make a game.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Right? Like, it's trying really hard to make a game, and it's hitting a lot of those qualities. So there's characters that you care about. There isn't there isn't really a story, but there is, like, a premise
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Right, where you're a researcher and and, there is progress, but there I I wish there was a story that you could progress through. That would that would encourage me to yeah. I don't know how much it would help with my sleep, but it would help me track my sleep. Right? That's the thing. Like, at at which point is it is it a game? At which one is it a tracker? And even as a game, is it fun, Link? Like, so far, you've I've only done it a couple days.
Link Keller:I I mean, it's it's fun in the way that a slightly less engaging Pokemon Go would be fun.
Josué Cardona:Okay.
Link Keller:Like, there is enjoyment to be had. It's not very deep mechanically. It's not, you know, an open world adventure. Choose what you wanna do, where your interest lies. It's small, but what what it does, it does it was designed very well. Like, the Pokemon company knows what they are doing when they make games.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah. So, ultimately, do you would you call this a game?
Link Keller:Yes.
Josué Cardona:You would? Okay. Okay.
Link Keller:I wouldn't call it a good game, but I would call it a game. Yeah.
Marc Cuiriz:Oh, classic classic Pokemon. You know, they they put out a game that's like, you know what? I wouldn't say this is good, but you know what? I'm still gonna play it.
Link Keller:Yep.
Josué Cardona:Which not good Pokemon game have you played?
Link Keller:Tread carefully, my friends.
Marc Cuiriz:I would say so this is this is gonna be more of a hot take for me, but sword and shield just didn't do it for me.
Link Keller:Okay.
Marc Cuiriz:I I don't know what it is, but well, actually, no. I'll take that back because I I will take that back. I'll retract that statement because I haven't really played through so much a sword and shield, or I should say shield because I just never had time. Sun and moon. I I didn't care for sun and moon at all. And I played that for a solid like, I I gave it a good a good attempt, but I just, I couldn't, I couldn't get into it. And that's what sowed the doubt of like, am I too old for Pokemon now? Am I getting bored of Pokemon? And then I tried playing shield and I think I first started feeling the same way where, like, I can only play it in short little bursts, and then life got busy, and then I got old. And now I I take midday naps, and I just don't I just don't have the time. And I haven't gotten back to it because now there's there's so many other things I need to play. Like, I need to finish Baldur's Gate. You know, there's Assassin's Creed. There's Spider Man. There's so much to do and not enough time, and I'm tired just thinking about it.
Josué Cardona:Well, I think I think, well, I have I have some some comments on just gamification in in general. But is there are there any other apps you wanted to bring up, Link, or any other part of, Pokemon Sleep you wanted to talk about?
Link Keller:Not not specifically. It does have some sort of online feature where you can have friends, which, Josué, you just added me as a friend on Pokemon Sleep, so we can look into what that means, I guess. I think that's kind of weird, but, as I am sitting and pondering it, it does make sense that a lot of, like, tracking apps, biohacking shit is, like, it is beneficial to have other people on your journey with you as support.
Josué Cardona:Yep. I I This one's not great.
Link Keller:I think what I am I think what I am coming to understand just now is that a lot of these things are created for neurotypical people, and I don't think that's me. And so I think I'm realizing that it's not, I'm not using the apps right. It's that it it's not designed to work the way that my brain works.
Josué Cardona:What do what do you mean? Like, say say more about that.
Link Keller:Well, I touched on earlier. I I something about having that information, like, logically, I understand it is useful to have that information. It makes me feel bad. It makes me feel bad to know how much I'm sleeping and, like, how deep my sleep is. I was doing air quotes, listeners.
Josué Cardona:Mhmm.
Link Keller:And and, like, when I was tracking food, like like, being hyper aware of calories, and and I gotta meet my macros and shit like that is, like, it it made me feel bad constantly being aware of that stuff. And I think
Josué Cardona:But do you have a goal?
Link Keller:As in like a weight loss goal?
Josué Cardona:Or yeah. Like a sleep goal or a or a
Link Keller:No.
Josué Cardona:Or a weight loss goal.
Link Keller:Mostly, I've gone into using these things with the idea of, like, I'm interested in, and I wanna know more. Isn't it fun to be self aware and understand how your body works and what's normal for your body? And, like, turns out, no. I don't want. Knowing that stuff just makes me feel bad about having a body I have to take care of and, trying to push back against feelings like, oh, I'm failing at taking care of my meat suit, which actually is a nice layer with the Pokemon stuff to sort of externalize that of, like, I'm not taking care of me. I'm taking care of my sweet little Pokemon who I love dearly and is so cute, and it's much easier to project it that direction than to
Josué Cardona:You're sleeping for them.
Link Keller:Yeah. Sleeping for 2. 2 Snorlaxes. Yeah. Yeah.
Josué Cardona:So so that's the that goes into what I wanted to talk about, like, this this idea of
Link Keller:I set that up for you. It's not, me bearing my soul. Oh, man.
Marc Cuiriz:That was that was calculated right there. That's a good segueing there, Link.
Josué Cardona:Well, these these apps are are more helpful if you have a goal. Like, the you know, if there is an intention of behavior modification, these things can be helpful. If just for curiosity, then, yeah, I can understand why. It's like, oh, you're just telling me that I'm that I that I have bad grades. Right?
Josué Cardona:Like, you're just grading me. You're just judging me.
Link Keller:It's that it's that meme of the I made my therapist laugh, and now I know I'm going to get a good grade in therapy, a thing that is achievable and normal to want. That's me. It's like, I'm gonna get a good grade at sleep. It's like Yeah. No.
Josué Cardona:But but, again, it's it's very different. If you had a goal, right, then you could use that information as feedback for for some kind of goal.
Link Keller:I think that's fair.
Josué Cardona:I think it's very different. Behavior modification is is it, then then there are lots of apps that you can use. And I I there's a lot that are, like that try to gamify different things. And gamification, even as an idea, as a word, is, is hard to talk about because a lot of it is very cheap.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:So, again, something like Pokemon Sleep, like, I I I do think they're they've made an effort to add enough game elements to it to keep you sort of engaged and connecting the sleeping with what's happening in the in the game, although pretty basic. Have have either of you ever tried Habitica? Have you seen, this app called Habitica?
Link Keller:I have heard of it. I have not actually used it.
Marc Cuiriz:I have not heard of it.
Josué Cardona:So it's like a it's built like an RPG and where you create a character, and then the missions and tasks that you have to do are, like, chores and different different habits and things like that. So the idea is that this game will help you build your habits while you gain XP doing these different missions, and it has, like, a 16 bit aesthetic, if I remember correctly. And, their tagline is, you know, gamify your life and tries to build motivation and things like that. But again, I think I think that only works if you're really trying to keep track of things and improve particular behaviors. Otherwise, and it it's also a lot of setup for for some of these things. So, you have to you gotta really be motivated to wanna do this. But, you know, if you're a therapist, you're a teacher, or you got, you know, somebody you wanna help with some kind of behavior modification, just improve some kind of behavior, do something different, whether it's exercise, diet, sleep. Just time management is a good example. I'm glad you brought that up. But there's there are lots of apps out there, but not not many that are fun. not many that are fun. I'm trying to think of something else where it's like, do you gain a benefit? Like, nothing has I've I haven't enjoyed anything as much as Pokemon Go in terms of getting a perk for walking around. Like, that was that was great. The Pikmin game, Pikmin Bloom
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:Is is not bad, but you don't have to walk around as much. But, I do like that one.
Link Keller:My my issue with I really liked, I I love Pikmin, full stop. Yeah. Yeah. The reason I ended up sort of bouncing off of Pikmin bloom is I wasn't collecting the different special Pikmin fast enough. Like, I like, I needed I needed that hit frequently enough. And because it's tied to, like, types of areas, like, there's, like, a popcorn Pikmin that you can get from theaters. It's like, I live in a place where there's not a theater near me. So I was like, I can't get that one unless I go somewhere else specifically for it. Yeah. Anyways, that's why I ended up sort of bouncing off of that. I still hop into Pokemon Go every so often, not recently, but, I do I do think getting people to move around outside is maybe an easier thing to gamify than eating or sleeping, which are more solo activities.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. The sleeping thing is weird. I think it's just weird in general, to reward some because, like, a lot of that feel, I think, is out of your control. Like, you can there's so much that you can do to try to improve your sleep, but at some point like, how bad will it be if I only sleep 5 hours? How how will the game penalize me? Or or how much will it reward me for sleeping an extra hour? Like, that's a really hard balance to to make. And if the goals were particularly exciting and it's, like, you know, I could I I I would get into it, and I'd be like, you know what? I'm a try to sleep an extra half hour. I don't care. Like, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna read something, and I'm gonna you know, I'm not gonna get up yet because I need to reach that next goal. Pokemon doesn't have that. Pokemon Sleep doesn't have that right now.
Link Keller:Mhmm. Yeah.
Josué Cardona:It doesn't.
Marc Cuiriz:That would encourage you to start taking, like, midday naps.
Link Keller:Look.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Seriously.
Link Keller:the issue is is it the app the Pokemon Sleep app running is that's what's on my phone. So if I wanna wake up and fuck around, do something else, I have to exit out of the app to do that. Stupid. I've I have definitely checked the time and been like, if I just don't press the I'm awake button for another 6 minutes, that'll get me to the 8 hour mark. And so I'm just I'm just gonna just gonna sit here in silence for 8 more minutes.
Marc Cuiriz:And you really just be sitting there contemplating everything, just going into deep thoughts.
Link Keller:I mean, that would be probably a very beneficial thing to do, would be to spend that time, like, setting intentions for the day or whatever. I just think about Baldur's Gate. That's all I'm doing with my free time.
Josué Cardona:Well, if it were if it were accurate. Right? I mean, then it it would know that you're not sleeping. So
Link Keller:Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't think it's accurate. I because I know I wake up more frequently than what it says that I'm awake for, but it does go all the way to, like, you are awake when I pick up my phone to check the time. So Yeah.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah.
Link Keller:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:It is, interesting. Good Yeah.
Link Keller:So if you're if you're looking at my graphs any time after the, like, 6 AM, anytime that it is going all the way up to the top wakefulness line, that is when I am checking my phone to see what time it is.
Josué Cardona:I'm gonna I'm gonna try it out a few a little more. Because, like, I do I do like to get into some of these games. Like, right now, I I'm really into a game called Street Fighter duel. It's like an idle fighter. So, basically, like, I get rewarded for coming back every day. And then but I can use that to, like, build my team and then progress through a whole bunch of challenges. Like, there's so much to do, and I can see the potential here for for the Pokemon game to to kinda do the same. I mean, it already seems kinda complicated with multiple systems going on, but, a whole more. More like Yeah.
Marc Cuiriz:This is like my my kitty collector, you know? And just check it every now and again. There's cute cats, and then I just set down things and just keep checking it. And then I just try to get those mementos.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't mind getting more rewarded for, like, steps and stuff. Like, that would like, if if there were different games that connected somehow that way.
Link Keller:I don't I don't know about any better, like, steps or anything. I many years ago, I did the, couch to 5 k thing. Mhmm. That's, like Yeah. Bracketed to, like, each week increase the amount of time that you spend running until you are able to run 3 miles.
Josué Cardona:Yeah.
Link Keller:While I was doing that, another friend decided to get involved, but started using oh, god. I can't remember what it's called. I gotta look it up. I I'm not I'm not gonna look it up. It it's, like a zombie themed, like
Josué Cardona:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, zombie run.
Link Keller:Zombie run. That that sounds perfect. But, yeah, basically, it's like somebody is narrating, like, a zombie apocalypse is like you are running to get away from the zombies. I thought that that was, like, a brilliant way to encourage that kind of engagement. It doesn't have, like, long term commitment to it because it's like it's just the one story and then you finish it. The same thing with the the couch to 5 k is, like, once you finished it, there's not really reason to, like, return or do it again.
Josué Cardona:Also, they work exactly the same. Like, it's like, okay. Go slower. Now run. You know? Like, now jog for 5, you know, for for 30 seconds.
Link Keller:15 seconds walking.Okay. 45 seconds running.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Link Keller:And so it's like They
Josué Cardona:work exactly the same way. That's a good example. I
Link Keller:think those kinds of apps are much better with the intention of, like, we are trying to get people to do, like, 3 weeks of this, rather than we want, you know, we wanna make lifetime users who return twice a day, every day to check-in and and log their stats and pick up their freebies and collect stickers. Like, that is such a a much harder thing to design for. Having a more focused goal specific thing. I think it's way more useful. And I think I think that could be applied to other stuff besides just like running, but it would be harder to do so because running has sort of a feedback that is very apparent in that you run. You move your whole bod, and you're like, oh, I did it. Success.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. But that's a that's a that's a great example because, also, right, it has a story.
Link Keller:Mhmm. yes.
Josué Cardona:you know, all these different elements of of just something an engaging piece of media, and combining it with something else. But I agree with you. Any anything like this that wants some kind of lifetime users, you would have to either be something like again, like, an app like Habitica that tries to do everything. Like, oh, you can put anything in it. Like, SuperBetter was that way too.
Josué Cardona:You can oh, you you pick whatever whatever thing you want, and and we can work on that because you're you're building the, pieces for it.
Link Keller:Mhmm.
Josué Cardona:And that's still temporary.
Link Keller:I can't believe we didn't bring up SuperBetter earlier. That's such a
Josué Cardona:Yeah.
Link Keller:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:Yeah. It's I mean, it's it's it's still like an older app, but the way that it works is exactly, like, you're creating an adventure. Right? And you have, like, you pick your enemies and you pick your your power ups and and all sorts of stuff. But the the setup required for that is a lot.
Josué Cardona:It's a lot, for any of these apps.
Link Keller:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:Okay. Well, I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna try Pokemon sleep a little more. I wanna see I only have 2 Pokemon. I wanna see I wanna see what I catch. Yeah. I catch something different.
Link Keller:Collect some more babies.
Josué Cardona:Yeah.
Marc Cuiriz:Don't be catching any darker eyes.
Josué Cardona:I know. No. I gotta be careful with those. Any closing thoughts, Mark?
Marc Cuiriz:I think that, like, these types of apps and and the the goals and the intentions that they have can be really beneficial. I just think that much like with everything else, they're only for, like, certain, like, demograph like, certain groups, like, people who are pretty highly motivated, because a lot of the times I mean, not necessarily Pokemon Sleep, but, like, there are, you know, like, some other apps we've mentioned before where, like, there's a lot of setup. There's a lot of, like, it takes a lot of time or effort to, like, actually get the get it going and also a time commitment piece to it. So, like, I think I think that these types of apps, like, they have merit and they they definitely have their purpose and their you know, in this case, their their little bits of fun. But, also, it's like, you know, they're not necessarily for for everybody.
Josué Cardona:Mhmm.
Marc Cuiriz:And that's okay. You don't need them necessarily.
Josué Cardona:Link?
Link Keller:I guess my my final thoughts are try not to be judgy about your sleep. I'm saying that as if I'm speaking to our audience or maybe you two, I'm speaking to myself.
Josué Cardona:And I will I will say that, I'm glad that there are tools out there that try to make some of these things more fun.
Link Keller:Yeah.
Josué Cardona:And to your point of, Marc, of, like, feeling very motivated I mean, sometimes if you've tried other thing other ways to do it and it doesn't work, this can be, like, a little a little extra effort at the beginning can make it, an easier experience later, or at least a more enjoyable one. And I think maybe the biggest takeaway is, from for me from this is that these are temporary interventions. Like, they can help you learn. They can help train you to do certain things. They can help you get from point a to point b, but it's hard to I would never recommend, like, relying on these things for for long term or even like, judging yourself for not sticking with them long term. It's like, it's okay. Don't worry about it. Just like any game, just like any any franchise or anything, like, you're gonna get tired of it. It's not gonna have the same effect, early on unless it's, like, super well designed, but I don't know any that, that, Pokemon Go is still, like, the pinnacle.
Link Keller:Maybe maybe in another 10 years.
Josué Cardona:Maybe. Maybe.
Link Keller:If if anybody's gonna pull off the perfect gamified bio tracking app, it would be the Pokemon company. So stay tuned.
Josué Cardona:No pressure, but yes. Alright. Well, tell us more about, tell us what what what your favorite apps, for behavior modification are. Have you played, Pokemon sleep? Share your your if you wanna be friends on Pokemon sleep, share your Pokemon sleep friend code or whatever it is. It's a very long digit number, that you can connect with, and, honestly, it's not really worth it. But but if you wanna do that, do it. And you can do that in any of our community spaces. Reach out however you prefer. For more geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. Remember to geek out and do good, and we'll be back next week.
Link Keller:mmm buh-Bye!
Josué Cardona:Geek Therapy is a 501 c 3 nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.
